Let me ask 2 questions re: Israel/Palestine
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Do you believe that if Israel left the West Bank Settlements immediately that there would be peaceful coexistence between the Palestinians and Israel?
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Do you believe the West Bank occupation serves a vital security role for Israel?
That’s what this all comes down to, no?
@LuFins-Dad said in Let me ask 2 questions re: Israel/Palestine:
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Do you believe that if Israel left the West Bank Settlements immediately that there would be peaceful coexistence between the Palestinians and Israel?
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Do you believe the West Bank occupation serves a vital security role for Israel?
That’s what this all comes down to, no?
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Pfffft
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Where has the alternative gotten us?
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Do you believe that if Israel left the West Bank Settlements immediately that there would be peaceful coexistence between the Palestinians and Israel?
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Do you believe the West Bank occupation serves a vital security role for Israel?
That’s what this all comes down to, no?
@LuFins-Dad said in Let me ask 2 questions re: Israel/Palestine:
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Do you believe that if Israel left the West Bank Settlements immediately that there would be peaceful coexistence between the Palestinians and Israel?
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Do you believe the West Bank occupation serves a vital security role for Israel?
That’s what this all comes down to, no?
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Yep.
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Agree with the response above. Read the Hamas Charter of 1988
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As long as Hamas and Hezbollah exist and exert radical and coercive influence over Arab populations in the region, both questions are moot.
Move along to how best to eradicate terrorists entities before considering either question.
@Renauda said in Let me ask 2 questions re: Israel/Palestine:
As long as Hamas and Hezbollah exist and exert radical and coercive influence over Arab populations in the region, both questions are moot.
Basically what I meant wrt #1.
Now, can someone edumacate me about #2?
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@Renauda said in Let me ask 2 questions re: Israel/Palestine:
As long as Hamas and Hezbollah exist and exert radical and coercive influence over Arab populations in the region, both questions are moot.
Basically what I meant wrt #1.
Now, can someone edumacate me about #2?
Now, can someone edumacate me about #2?
Only one poster in this forum whose answer, if any, to that question would have me sit up, listen and take note. He’s however been rather preoccupied the past nine weeks dealing with the medical consequences to third parties resulting from an unprovoked attack on his country by Hamas fanatics and other equally radicalised Arabs. I believe you have met him in person on a couple of occasions.
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Lots of confusion or even ignorance in this thread. Hamas doesn’t run the West Bank, and the PA doesn’t have the destruction of Israel in its charter (the predecessor PLO had it in their charter until the Oslo accords in 1996).
#1 is achievable, though not as phrased (‘leave immediately’). The idea would be to have a regime in place that governed and did a reasonable job of suppressing local jihadis. The PA is the most likely candidate, though Abbas is getting long in the tooth.
#2, for now. But it could be replaced by implementing #1. Not perfectly, but it ain’t perfect now.
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i presume everyone wants me to chime in and of course, its impossible to really spell it all out in a forum post, I wish i could write "the short answer is...." but there really is no short answer.
I will comment on what jon wrote right above. the last elections held by the PA was in 2006. hamas won. and eventually to make a long story short, the PA split from hamas in 2007, then hamas took over gaza (and tossing fatah members off the roofs of buildings, as i remember)
since then, there have been no elections. why? because hamas still maintains the majority of votes in the west bank, and abbas, knowing his government would fall if he had elections, just stopped having elections.this means, that right now, fatah holds onto power by grace of the US, as well as mutual security interests with israel. Israes keeps hamas at bay in the west bank,. and fatah provides nominal internal security and cooperates with israel to suppress hamas in the WB.
which all means, if israel was to unilaterally withdraw from the WB, as they did from gaza, the same upheaval would happen in the WB as it did in gaza, and hamas would takeover, so thats not going to happen,
when abbas dies, there will be a ;power struggle within fatah to gain control, but israel wont let them collapse.
so that basically answers both questions, if israel withdraws from the WB, the war will continue, as hamas will be free of israeli power, and the WB is necessary as a security buffer to keep hamas jihadis from taking over (as they are really the majority)
this is all not connected at all to settlement or messianic claims to the holy land (although strictly speaking, the kingdoms of judea and samaria were all in what is now occupied territory) but that is not the overlying strategic issue, thats just the cover story (at least for most of us)
the real issue is israel cant live with a jihadi west bank. and now it seems neither with a jihadi gaza. (ironically in gaza, as opposed to the WB, many of the population detest hamas for ruining their lives, something not true in the WB, since hamas has never governed there)but that really is a highly shortened version of my answer to the question, its really quite complex
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For sure if Israel left the WB they’d have to be very selective about who took over. As I mentioned above it would have to be a regime that was willing and able to control the jihadis. An election would not lead to that result, it would have to be implemented and supported by Israel and the US.
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What other group would be even willing to control the Jihadis, let alone able to? Nothing internal within the Palestinians themselves. The answer would have to come from outside, and that’s rife with all kinds of different and worse problems.
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i presume everyone wants me to chime in and of course, its impossible to really spell it all out in a forum post, I wish i could write "the short answer is...." but there really is no short answer.
I will comment on what jon wrote right above. the last elections held by the PA was in 2006. hamas won. and eventually to make a long story short, the PA split from hamas in 2007, then hamas took over gaza (and tossing fatah members off the roofs of buildings, as i remember)
since then, there have been no elections. why? because hamas still maintains the majority of votes in the west bank, and abbas, knowing his government would fall if he had elections, just stopped having elections.this means, that right now, fatah holds onto power by grace of the US, as well as mutual security interests with israel. Israes keeps hamas at bay in the west bank,. and fatah provides nominal internal security and cooperates with israel to suppress hamas in the WB.
which all means, if israel was to unilaterally withdraw from the WB, as they did from gaza, the same upheaval would happen in the WB as it did in gaza, and hamas would takeover, so thats not going to happen,
when abbas dies, there will be a ;power struggle within fatah to gain control, but israel wont let them collapse.
so that basically answers both questions, if israel withdraws from the WB, the war will continue, as hamas will be free of israeli power, and the WB is necessary as a security buffer to keep hamas jihadis from taking over (as they are really the majority)
this is all not connected at all to settlement or messianic claims to the holy land (although strictly speaking, the kingdoms of judea and samaria were all in what is now occupied territory) but that is not the overlying strategic issue, thats just the cover story (at least for most of us)
the real issue is israel cant live with a jihadi west bank. and now it seems neither with a jihadi gaza. (ironically in gaza, as opposed to the WB, many of the population detest hamas for ruining their lives, something not true in the WB, since hamas has never governed there)but that really is a highly shortened version of my answer to the question, its really quite complex
@bachophile said in Let me ask 2 questions re: Israel/Palestine:
i presume everyone wants me to chime in and of course, its impossible to really spell it all out in a forum post, I wish i could write "the short answer is...." but there really is no short answer.
I will comment on what jon wrote right above. the last elections held by the PA was in 2006. hamas won. and eventually to make a long story short, the PA split from hamas in 2007, then hamas took over gaza (and tossing fatah members off the roofs of buildings, as i remember)
since then, there have been no elections. why? because hamas still maintains the majority of votes in the west bank, and abbas, knowing his government would fall if he had elections, just stopped having elections.this means, that right now, fatah holds onto power by grace of the US, as well as mutual security interests with israel. Israes keeps hamas at bay in the west bank,. and fatah provides nominal internal security and cooperates with israel to suppress hamas in the WB.
which all means, if israel was to unilaterally withdraw from the WB, as they did from gaza, the same upheaval would happen in the WB as it did in gaza, and hamas would takeover, so thats not going to happen,
when abbas dies, there will be a ;power struggle within fatah to gain control, but israel wont let them collapse.
so that basically answers both questions, if israel withdraws from the WB, the war will continue, as hamas will be free of israeli power, and the WB is necessary as a security buffer to keep hamas jihadis from taking over (as they are really the majority)
this is all not connected at all to settlement or messianic claims to the holy land (although strictly speaking, the kingdoms of judea and samaria were all in what is now occupied territory) but that is not the overlying strategic issue, thats just the cover story (at least for most of us)
the real issue is israel cant live with a jihadi west bank. and now it seems neither with a jihadi gaza. (ironically in gaza, as opposed to the WB, many of the population detest hamas for ruining their lives, something not true in the WB, since hamas has never governed there)but that really is a highly shortened version of my answer to the question, its really quite complex
I appreciate your answer, and it makes sense. I was going to chime in with something similar to Jon's post and yours, but no need to repeat something that was already spelled out so clearly.
