The Two Big Myths about the Middle East

[89th]

I certainly don't have deeper knowledge, other than I believe the idea of "Palestine" has been hijacked (heh) by various groups over the centuries. In other words, the geographic region was known early on as some word form of "palestine" which really just meant it was a neighbor of Egypt. So yes, the region of palestine neighbors Egypt. And the region of palestine is home to Judiasm, the land of Israel (aka the Israelites) and of course the eventual Muslim start a few hundred years after Christ, and the resulting fighting over control over the land. Heck, didn't the Romans name it Palestine to replace the name of Israel and Judea or something?

This is why there will always be fighting there. People read from different history books.

[Renauda]

@George-K

One point the author misses is that Arabs consider Israeli Jews as cast off Europeans who came to the region as foreign imperialists. To a lesser degree Arabs felt the same about the Ottoman Turks; although the Ottoman occupation was mitigated by the fact Turks were Muslims.

Either way though Israelis are viewed as foreign occupiers of Arab lands. As such Palestine is just a generally accepted geographical location inside what was prior to 1919, regarded as a region of greater Syria. The whole Middle East with exception of what is now Iran, Egypt and North Africa was designated Arabia.

[bachophile]

Cmon George big can of worms.

Palestinian nationalism has existed since at least the waning of the Ottoman Empire, say late 19th century. but it’s an irrelevant question now because in their own view, they are ancient and indigenous. Some even claim to descend from pre Israelite Canaanites. Either way, it’s not going away by saying they don’t exist. They obviously exist in their own view and that’s what matters I guess.

[Doctor Phibes]

If you go back 500 years there's no such thing as Americans. Or the British, for that matter. People make shit up.

Not that I'm suggesting those were golden years or anything.

[Copper]

@Doctor-Phibes said in The Two Big Myths about the Middle East:

People make shit up.

Native Americans

[George K]

@Doctor-Phibes said in The Two Big Myths about the Middle East:

If you go back 500 years there's no such thing as Americans. Or the British, for that matter. People make shit up.

That, more or less, is my point.

Everyone looks at historical precedent. The only question really is how far back do you want to go?

You could probably go back tens of thousands of years to the times when Homo sapiens was beating the crap out of Homo neanderthalensis.

[LuFins Dad]

What really matters as far as “legitimacy” is concerned is what happened at the end of the late Ottoman Empire through the end of WWI. As far as Jerusalem was concerned, Jews and Christians were both minorities, but not small ones. In fact, if combined I believe they represented a majority. (What is the ethnicity of the region’s Christians? Are they descended from the original churches planted from the Jews?) Then both the Jewish and the Moslem populations exploded far beyond reproduction rates. By WWII, almost all of the population on both sides were immigrants. So I don’t think historical legacy works for either side. They are almost all immigrants with historical heritage in the region.

The next factor is International Law. That’s pretty clear. The foundation of Israel is fully based in International Law established by the appropriate authorities.

The final factor is the most basic… Strength of Arms. The simple fact is that Israel has successfully defended and defeated their enemies in multiple wars. Wars have consequences, and they won…

[Doctor Phibes]

@George-K said in The Two Big Myths about the Middle East:

@Doctor-Phibes said in The Two Big Myths about the Middle East:

If you go back 500 years there's no such thing as Americans. Or the British, for that matter. People make shit up.

That, more or less, is my point.

Everyone looks at historical precedent. The only question really is how far back do you want to go?

You could probably go back tens of thousands of years to the times when Homo sapiens was beating the crap out of Homo neanderthalensis.

I thought the article you posted was rather distasteful. The phrase "We should not refer to the so-called Palestinians as a real people." has some unpleasant undertones. They see themselves as a real people, as Bach said.

[George K]

@Doctor-Phibes said in The Two Big Myths about the Middle East:

I thought the article you posted was rather distasteful. The phrase "We should not refer to the so-called Palestinians as a real people." has some unpleasant undertones. They see themselves as a real people, as Bach said.

I didn't read it that way, but of course, that's up to interpretation. I read it as "we should not refer to the Palestinians as A real people, with the emphasis that their ethnicity is questionable.

Again, I'm not disputing what Bach points out, or even agreeing with the article, for that matter - just questioning the history of the region and the populations. As you pointed out, history goes back a long way. The only question is when do you want to start counting? The Mohammedans didn't exist until 700 years after Jesus, and they claim it's their land?

[Doctor Phibes]

@George-K said in The Two Big Myths about the Middle East:

I didn't read it that way, but of course, that's up to interpretation. I read it as "we should not refer to the Palestinians as A real people, with the emphasis that their ethnicity is questionable.

One might as well say that Londoners aren't real. If only it were true.

[jon-nyc]

Myth 2 doesn’t follow from myth 1. Palestine may not have been a ‘state’ in the modern sense but it was a Roman province. You wouldn’t say there are no Puerto Ricans because it’s not a state.

Also, what Bach said.

[Aqua Letifer]

@jon-nyc said in The Two Big Myths about the Middle East:

You wouldn’t say there are no Puerto Ricans because it’s not a state.

You also wouldn't say that Puerto Rico is identical to Connecticut in terms of statehood.

"There is no such thing as Palestine" and "Palestine is no different politically than any other country" are both too extreme to take seriously.

[bachophile]

@George-K true but honestly, Jewish faith has revolved around a return to Zion for two thousand years without any break. The idea that Zionism is just another form of 19 century nationalism arising de novo from nothing but European national renaissance is to rewrite history.

[George K]

@bachophile said in The Two Big Myths about the Middle East:

@George-K true but honestly, Jewish faith has revolved around a return to Zion for two thousand years without any break.

My point, exactly.

The idea that Zionism is just another form of 19 century nationalism arising de novo from nothing but European national renaissance is to rewrite history.

And the claim on "Palestine?"

[Renauda]

@Doctor-Phibes said in The Two Big Myths about the Middle East:

@George-K said in The Two Big Myths about the Middle East:

I didn't read it that way, but of course, that's up to interpretation. I read it as "we should not refer to the Palestinians as A real people, with the emphasis that their ethnicity is questionable.

One might as well say that Londoners aren't real. If only it were true.

That same argument is being used in part to justify an invasion, occupation and annexation of sovereign Ukraine and its territory. We are told Ukraine is an artificial construct.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Renauda said in The Two Big Myths about the Middle East:

We are told Ukraine is an artificial construct.

Which is pretty ironic when you consider that Putin comes from the USSR.

[Renauda]

@Doctor-Phibes

Indeed, Putin cannot cope with the tragedy of it all.

[taiwan_girl]

@George-K said in The Two Big Myths about the Middle East:

Myth 2. Palestinians

No state, no nation, no people. Palestine never existed, hence Palestinians never existed, do not exist. Full stop.

Today at the UN
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148731?_gl=1bg71ms_gaMjA2OTM4NTgwLjE3MTM0OTE1MTQ._ga_TK9BQL5X7Z*MTcxMzQ5MTUxMy4xLjEuMTcxMzQ5MTU4Mi4wLjAuMA..

In a vote of 12 in favour to one against, with two abstentions, the Council did not adopt a draft resolution that would have recommended the General Assembly to hold a vote with the broader UN membership to allow Palestine to join as a full UN Member State.

The draft resolution is among the shortest in the Council’s history: “The Security Council, having examined the application of the State of Palestine for admission to the United Nations (S/2011/592), recommends to the General Assembly that the State of Palestine be admitted to membership in the United Nations.”

For a draft resolution to pass, the Council must have at least nine members in favour and none of its permanent members – China, France, Russia, United Kingdom, United States – using their veto power.

The US voted against it because they said that granting Palestinian full membership would be the same as acknowedging Palestine as a state. Whether or not palestine becomes a state is part of the negotiations between Isreal and Palestine.

I agree with this assessment.