Hamas attacks Israel
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Apropos that, is there any other conflict in the history of warfare where warnings are distributed before an attack?
@bachophile said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Apropos that, is there any other conflict in the history of warfare where warnings are distributed before an attack?
It did happen in Hiroshima, but that might have been a one-of. @jolly would know...
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https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1086&context=ils
The requirement to give, in certain circumstances, advance warning prior to an at- tack that may affect the civilian population appears in the earliest codifications of the law governing the conduct of hostilities. Thus, we find the following instruc- tion in Article 19 of the Lieber Code of 1862:
Commanders, whenever admissible, inform the enemy of their intention to bombard a place, so that the noncombatants, and especially the women and children, may be re- moved before the bombardment commences. But it is no infraction of the common law of war to omit thus to inform the enemy. Surprise may be a necessity.1
Article 19 acknowledges that there may be situations when it is justified not to give a warning, as when it is necessary to enable surprising the enemy.The Lieber Code influenced the language of the Brussels Declaration of 1874, which stated in Article 16 that “if a town or fortress, agglomeration of dwellings, or village, is defended, the officer in command of an attacking force must, before commencing a bombardment, except in assault, do all in his power to warn the authorities.”2 Unlike the Lieber Code, the Brussels Declaration is directed to the of- ficer in command of an attacking force and not to commanders in general. It also specifies that the warning must be given to the “authorities.” Similar language appears in the Laws of War on Land published by the Institute of International Law in 1880 (known also as the Oxford Manual).3
Article 26 of the Regulations annexed to the 1907 Hague Convention IV con- tains wording that is almost identical to that of the Brussels Declaration: “The Offi- cer in Command of an attacking force must, before commencing a bombardment, except in the case of an assault, do all in his power to warn the authorities.”4 The term “assault” refers to surprise attacks, regarding which there is no obligation to warn in advance.
Article 6 of the 1907 Hague Convention IX Concerning Bombardment by Naval Forces in Time of War also refers to the duty to issue warnings prior to attacks.6 Conversely, the draft Air Warfare Rules of 1923 did not refer to warnings,7 which suggests that at that period of time no similar rule existed with regard to aerial bombardment.8
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An obligation to give warnings prior to attacks appears in many military manuals, including the most recent.35 Examples include the following.
• The US Army’s Operational Law Handbook, published in 2010, provides:
The general requirement to warn before a bombardment only applies if civilians are present. Exception: if it is an assault (any attack where surprise is a key element), no warning need be given. Warnings need not be specific as to time and location of the at- tack, but can be general and issued through broadcasts, leaflets, etc.*36
• Paragraph8.9.2 of the USNavy’s The Commander’s Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations, which was issued in 2007, under the heading “Warning before Bombardment” states, “Where the military situation permits, commanders should make every reasonable effort to warn the civilian population located in close proximity to a military objective targeted for bombardment. Warnings may be general rather than specific lest the bombarding force or the success of its mis- sion be placed in jeopardy.”37
• Article 5.32.8 of the United Kingdom’s The Manual of the Law of Armed Conflict (2004) provides:
There is a duty to give advance warning of an attack that “may” affect the civilian popu- lation, unless circumstances do not permit. Obviously, the point does not arise as a matter of law if military operations are being conducted in an area where there is no ci- vilian population or if the attack is not going to affect the civilian population at all. In other cases, the warning must be given in advance and it must be effective. The object of the warning is to enable civilians to take shelter or leave the area and to enable the civil defense authorities to take appropriate measures. To be effective the warning must be in time and sufficiently specific and comprehensive to enable them to do this . . . .*
• Article 551 o fAustralia’s 1994 Defense Force Manual provides:
Warning Civilians Prior to Attack under International Law
When a planned attack is likely to affect the civilian population, those making the at- tack are required to give, if practicable, effective advance warning of the attack to the authorities or civilian population. This requirement must obviously be applied in a commonsense manner in light of all other factors. If the proposed action is likely to be seriously compromised by a warning then there is no requirement to provide any warning.39- Article 420 of Canada’s manual Law of Armed Conflict at the Operational and Tactical Levels (2001) states, “An effective advance warning shall be given of at- tacks which may affect the civilian population, unless circumstances do not permit such a warning to be given. For tactical reasons, an attacking force may not give a warning in order to maintain the element of surprise.”
• Article1.4 of France’s LOAC Summary Note of1992states,“If the military mission allows for it, appropriate warning must be given to the civilian population to give it time to seek shelter.”41
Additional examples appear in volume II of the ICRC’s customary international law study.42 -
Apropos that, is there any other conflict in the history of warfare where warnings are distributed before an attack?
@bachophile said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Apropos that, is there any other conflict in the history of warfare where warnings are distributed before an attack?
Oddly enough, the IRA used to sometimes phone in a warning before setting off a bomb. They even had passwords so that the police would know which ones were genuine.
(Just to be clear I’m not comparing the IDF with the IRA, or this conflict with NI. Also, they would occasionally plant a second one nearby with no warning)
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I don’t mean what’s written in the rules. I mean what’s done in practice. Regularly.
I don’t think it was done during Vietnam, Korea, or WWII. not sure about Iraq or Afghanistan -
@Horace said in Hamas attacks Israel:
As I understand it, Palestinian civilians are given an opportunity to evacuate before bombings.
Presumably the warning for the civilians to evacuate would also reach the ears of the terrorists, militants, rapists, murderers, etc. who can also choose to evacuate along with the civilians. Not sure how that would separate the civilians from the terrorists/militants/rapists/murderers.
@Axtremus said in Hamas attacks Israel:
@Horace said in Hamas attacks Israel:
As I understand it, Palestinian civilians are given an opportunity to evacuate before bombings.
Presumably the warning for the civilians to evacuate would also reach the ears of the terrorists, militants, rapists, murderers, etc. who can also choose to evacuate along with the civilians. Not sure how that would separate the civilians from the terrorists/militants/rapists/murderers.
Because the target of those bombings are not people, but equipment, weapons, communication gear, etc… The purpose is to eliminate these assets for the opposition before ground operations begin, where IDF forces can be more discriminate.
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@Axtremus said in Hamas attacks Israel:
@Horace said in Hamas attacks Israel:
As I understand it, Palestinian civilians are given an opportunity to evacuate before bombings.
Presumably the warning for the civilians to evacuate would also reach the ears of the terrorists, militants, rapists, murderers, etc. who can also choose to evacuate along with the civilians. Not sure how that would separate the civilians from the terrorists/militants/rapists/murderers.
Because the target of those bombings are not people, but equipment, weapons, communication gear, etc… The purpose is to eliminate these assets for the opposition before ground operations begin, where IDF forces can be more discriminate.
@LuFins-Dad said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Because the target of those bombings are not people, but equipment, weapons, communication gear, etc…
Can the equipment, weapons, communications gear, etc. not be moved by the terrorists/militants/rapists/murderers as they evacuate along with the civilians in light of the pre-bombing warnings?
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A perspective...
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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@LuFins-Dad said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Because the target of those bombings are not people, but equipment, weapons, communication gear, etc…
Can the equipment, weapons, communications gear, etc. not be moved by the terrorists/militants/rapists/murderers as they evacuate along with the civilians in light of the pre-bombing warnings?
@Axtremus said in Hamas attacks Israel:
@LuFins-Dad said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Because the target of those bombings are not people, but equipment, weapons, communication gear, etc…
Can the equipment, weapons, communications gear, etc. not be moved by the terrorists/militants/rapists/murderers as they evacuate along with the civilians in light of the pre-bombing warnings?
In 5 minutes? Best of luck.
The Brad
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@Jolly said in Hamas attacks Israel:
A perspective...
A few words with one of the pathologists:
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-769339
I never did help with much this bad. I only helped with forensic stuff early in my career and those skills are very outdated. But if I was 20 years younger, I think I'd hop a plane...
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@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Interesting tid bits.
The people providing the Palestinian numbers are the same people that claimed 500 people in a hospital were killed when it blew up from an Israeli rocket.
The Brad
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And for the sake of moral clarity, look at the second part of Ayn Rand's comments regarding what is "fair" in war.
I posted another interview about "proportionality" in this conflict.
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Interesting tid bits.
The people providing the Palestinian numbers are the same people that claimed 500 people in a hospital were killed when it blew up from an Israeli rocket.
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And for the sake of moral clarity, look at the second part of Ayn Rand's comments regarding what is "fair" in war.
I posted another interview about "proportionality" in this conflict.
Did people take my previous post as trying to make some moral
point?I just thought the details were interesting. Did you know they’re still finding Hamas fighters in Israel?
The number of Palestinian displaced is on the order one would expect given the order to evacuate half the country. But did you realize there were 300k displaced Israelis? That’s a bigger number than I would have guessed.
You were warned.
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And for the sake of moral clarity, look at the second part of Ayn Rand's comments regarding what is "fair" in war.
I posted another interview about "proportionality" in this conflict.
@George-K said in Hamas attacks Israel:
And for the sake of moral clarity, look at the second part of Ayn Rand's comments regarding what is "fair" in war.
I posted another interview about "proportionality" in this conflict.
Rand's comments were spot on.
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You don’t know that.
@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
You don’t know that.
Sure we do.
“Palestinian Health Officials” https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip/card/latest-death-toll-in-israel-and-gaza-eoVPFI8WcXN0mzIR73pY
KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip (AP) — A massive blast rocked a Gaza City hospital packed with wounded and other Palestinians seeking shelter Tuesday, killing hundreds of people, the Hamas-run Health Ministry said. Hamas blamed an Israeli airstrike, while the Israeli military said the hospital was hit by a rocket misfired by Palestinian militants.
The health ministry said at least 500 people had been killed.
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You really don’t know where this group got their estimates. It’s hardly a pro-Hamas account.
You were warned.
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Did people take my previous post as trying to make some moral
point?I just thought the details were interesting. Did you know they’re still finding Hamas fighters in Israel?
The number of Palestinian displaced is on the order one would expect given the order to evacuate half the country. But did you realize there were 300k displaced Israelis? That’s a bigger number than I would have guessed.
@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Did people take my previous post as trying to make some moral point?
No, I don't think that you were trying to make a moral point.
The tweet was. To wit:
"-1500+ Palestinian children killed in Gaza
-750K+ Pals displaced
-300K Istaelis (sic) displaced"I don't dispute the facts (though, like @LuFins-Dad I question the source of the Gazan numbers)), but framing in this fashion is certainly making a moral point, imo.
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You really don’t know where this group got their estimates. It’s hardly a pro-Hamas account.
@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
You really don’t know where this group got their estimates. It’s hardly a pro-Hamas account.
Fair point. Until the source of the estimates is revealed, however, I'll be skeptical.
ETA: This account also posted this.
"There has to be a way to call for a ceasefire and ensure safety of Palestinians while also addressing the need to debilitate Hamas and restore safety for Israelis, while at the same time demanding a solution that ends the siege/occupation of OPT."
OPT: "Occupied Palestinian Territories?"
