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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. The War On Math

The War On Math

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  • HoraceH Offline
    HoraceH Offline
    Horace
    wrote on last edited by
    #9

    The future of large corporations is going to be a nightmarish identitarian anti-meritocracy, after AI takes over for all the stuff the smart people used to be needed for. Straight white males might start transitioning just for the career advantage.

    Education is extremely important.

    1 Reply Last reply
    • MikM Offline
      MikM Offline
      Mik
      wrote on last edited by Mik
      #10

      Yep. The mantra is if they go to a better school they will necessarily do better, which is not true.

      What they forget is that getting an engineering degree, or a law degree, or most any degree, does not make you an engineer or whatever. it gives you enough tools to go out and learn to be that. It's important to find an environment where the student will thrive as opposed to being crushed by competition.

      The Ivy League degree does not necessarily make you more successful in your field. I have four years of undergraduate education but only an associate degree, yet I've done as well or better than most of the MBAs I know.

      “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

      1 Reply Last reply
      • CopperC Offline
        CopperC Offline
        Copper
        wrote on last edited by
        #11

        If we have to make the smart students stupid to achieve equity, then so be it.

        No justice, no peace.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

          @Jolly said in The War On Math:

          You can't make chicken salad out of chickenshit.

          Kids entering college in many STEM programs today, need at least an introductory course in calculus, in high school. That's a problem in minority schools, in small rural schools and with homeschooled kids.

          We must address this at both high school and college level.

          As for the crappy teaching of math at the lower levels, K-8, we really need to return to what works, ideology crap be damned. Memorization of time tables, basic math concepts, word problems, drlls, etc.

          Or you could take the kids who clearly suck at math and see what their drawing skills are. You'll catch a few more that way.

          JollyJ Offline
          JollyJ Offline
          Jolly
          wrote on last edited by
          #12

          @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

          @Jolly said in The War On Math:

          You can't make chicken salad out of chickenshit.

          Kids entering college in many STEM programs today, need at least an introductory course in calculus, in high school. That's a problem in minority schools, in small rural schools and with homeschooled kids.

          We must address this at both high school and college level.

          As for the crappy teaching of math at the lower levels, K-8, we really need to return to what works, ideology crap be damned. Memorization of time tables, basic math concepts, word problems, drlls, etc.

          Or you could take the kids who clearly suck at math and see what their drawing skills are. You'll catch a few more that way.

          Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

          “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

          Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

          Aqua LetiferA Doctor PhibesD MikM 3 Replies Last reply
          • JollyJ Jolly

            @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

            @Jolly said in The War On Math:

            You can't make chicken salad out of chickenshit.

            Kids entering college in many STEM programs today, need at least an introductory course in calculus, in high school. That's a problem in minority schools, in small rural schools and with homeschooled kids.

            We must address this at both high school and college level.

            As for the crappy teaching of math at the lower levels, K-8, we really need to return to what works, ideology crap be damned. Memorization of time tables, basic math concepts, word problems, drlls, etc.

            Or you could take the kids who clearly suck at math and see what their drawing skills are. You'll catch a few more that way.

            Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

            Aqua LetiferA Offline
            Aqua LetiferA Offline
            Aqua Letifer
            wrote on last edited by
            #13

            @Jolly said in The War On Math:

            @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

            @Jolly said in The War On Math:

            You can't make chicken salad out of chickenshit.

            Kids entering college in many STEM programs today, need at least an introductory course in calculus, in high school. That's a problem in minority schools, in small rural schools and with homeschooled kids.

            We must address this at both high school and college level.

            As for the crappy teaching of math at the lower levels, K-8, we really need to return to what works, ideology crap be damned. Memorization of time tables, basic math concepts, word problems, drlls, etc.

            Or you could take the kids who clearly suck at math and see what their drawing skills are. You'll catch a few more that way.

            Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

            Yet it's completely acceptable for them to be absolute crap at writing, drawing, gardening, home finance, and to never play an instrument in all of their childhood.

            No parent in America would ever say, "okay well your Calc and AP English grades are good but what's with this B in art/creative writing/home ec/band?"

            Please love yourself.

            JollyJ LuFins DadL 2 Replies Last reply
            • JollyJ Jolly

              @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

              @Jolly said in The War On Math:

              You can't make chicken salad out of chickenshit.

              Kids entering college in many STEM programs today, need at least an introductory course in calculus, in high school. That's a problem in minority schools, in small rural schools and with homeschooled kids.

              We must address this at both high school and college level.

              As for the crappy teaching of math at the lower levels, K-8, we really need to return to what works, ideology crap be damned. Memorization of time tables, basic math concepts, word problems, drlls, etc.

              Or you could take the kids who clearly suck at math and see what their drawing skills are. You'll catch a few more that way.

              Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

              Doctor PhibesD Online
              Doctor PhibesD Online
              Doctor Phibes
              wrote on last edited by Doctor Phibes
              #14

              @Jolly said in The War On Math:

              Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

              Half the population is below average intelligence.

              I was only joking

              George KG LuFins DadL KlausK 3 Replies Last reply
              • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

                @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

                Half the population is below average intelligence.

                George KG Offline
                George KG Offline
                George K
                wrote on last edited by
                #15

                @Doctor-Phibes said in The War On Math:

                Half the population is below average intelligence.

                Except in Lake Wobegon.

                "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                JonJ 1 Reply Last reply
                • JollyJ Jolly

                  @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                  @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                  You can't make chicken salad out of chickenshit.

                  Kids entering college in many STEM programs today, need at least an introductory course in calculus, in high school. That's a problem in minority schools, in small rural schools and with homeschooled kids.

                  We must address this at both high school and college level.

                  As for the crappy teaching of math at the lower levels, K-8, we really need to return to what works, ideology crap be damned. Memorization of time tables, basic math concepts, word problems, drlls, etc.

                  Or you could take the kids who clearly suck at math and see what their drawing skills are. You'll catch a few more that way.

                  Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

                  MikM Offline
                  MikM Offline
                  Mik
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #16

                  @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                  Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

                  Ahem. I am fine at all basic math. Fractions, number sets, geometry, all that. Algebra just leaves me cold. I barely passed it in high school because my father literally locked me in his bedroom until I got all the work done. It made no sense to me.

                  When I was 26 and in college, I decided to take it as an elective for computer science. I was older and would apply myself more diligently. Still made no sense.

                  “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                    @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                    @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                    @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                    You can't make chicken salad out of chickenshit.

                    Kids entering college in many STEM programs today, need at least an introductory course in calculus, in high school. That's a problem in minority schools, in small rural schools and with homeschooled kids.

                    We must address this at both high school and college level.

                    As for the crappy teaching of math at the lower levels, K-8, we really need to return to what works, ideology crap be damned. Memorization of time tables, basic math concepts, word problems, drlls, etc.

                    Or you could take the kids who clearly suck at math and see what their drawing skills are. You'll catch a few more that way.

                    Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

                    Yet it's completely acceptable for them to be absolute crap at writing, drawing, gardening, home finance, and to never play an instrument in all of their childhood.

                    No parent in America would ever say, "okay well your Calc and AP English grades are good but what's with this B in art/creative writing/home ec/band?"

                    JollyJ Offline
                    JollyJ Offline
                    Jolly
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #17

                    @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                    @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                    @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                    @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                    You can't make chicken salad out of chickenshit.

                    Kids entering college in many STEM programs today, need at least an introductory course in calculus, in high school. That's a problem in minority schools, in small rural schools and with homeschooled kids.

                    We must address this at both high school and college level.

                    As for the crappy teaching of math at the lower levels, K-8, we really need to return to what works, ideology crap be damned. Memorization of time tables, basic math concepts, word problems, drlls, etc.

                    Or you could take the kids who clearly suck at math and see what their drawing skills are. You'll catch a few more that way.

                    Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

                    Yet it's completely acceptable for them to be absolute crap at writing, drawing, gardening, home finance, and to never play an instrument in all of their childhood.

                    No parent in America would ever say, "okay well your Calc and AP English grades are good but what's with this B in art/creative writing/home ec/band?"

                    Within a certain level of accomplishment, most people who don't drool when they walk can become competent.

                    1. Every child used to able to write in cursive. Some are better at penmanship than others, but other people could at least read what other people wrote.
                    2. Anybody above that drooling curve, can be taught to write. Not the next great American novel, but a decent letter, a thank you note or a logical set of simple instructions.
                    3. Gardening? Yep, if it's important enough that you learn or go hungry, you learn.
                    4. Dollars and cents? Yes, anybody above the drool factor can be taught. Willful adherence is debatable, but it's not because they can't.
                    5. Musical instrument? Why do you think they invented the piano?😀

                    “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                    Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • Doctor PhibesD Online
                      Doctor PhibesD Online
                      Doctor Phibes
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #18

                      The world’s changed a lot in the last 50 years. I’d humbly suggest what we teach and how we teach it should reflect this

                      I was only joking

                      Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
                      • JollyJ Offline
                        JollyJ Offline
                        Jolly
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #19

                        The world has changed, but people are essentially still the same. Now, we can use new approaches and different techniques - if they can be proven to work - but basics are basics.

                        “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                        Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

                          @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                          Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

                          Half the population is below average intelligence.

                          LuFins DadL Offline
                          LuFins DadL Offline
                          LuFins Dad
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #20

                          @Doctor-Phibes said in The War On Math:

                          @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                          Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

                          Half the population is below average intelligence.

                          No, half the population is below mean intelligence.

                          The Brad

                          AxtremusA 1 Reply Last reply
                          • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

                            The world’s changed a lot in the last 50 years. I’d humbly suggest what we teach and how we teach it should reflect this

                            Aqua LetiferA Offline
                            Aqua LetiferA Offline
                            Aqua Letifer
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #21

                            @Doctor-Phibes said in The War On Math:

                            The world’s changed a lot in the last 50 years. I’d humbly suggest what we teach and how we teach it should reflect this

                            56CEB656-FC1A-4869-B64D-0F30FE4BFBA6.jpeg

                            Which means we need to go back, not forward. Kids don't need to go all in on another damn system that's going to be obsolete in 5 years, they need to learn how to think for themselves. If you believe public school is providing that you're out of your mind.

                            Please love yourself.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • JollyJ Offline
                              JollyJ Offline
                              Jolly
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #22

                              Public school can be effective, but some things have to change. Overt politics and causes need to leave the building. Back in the dim mists of time, I couldn't have told you whether my teachers were Republicans, Democrats or Crown Loyalists.

                              I've been preaching basics this entire thread and I believe in basics done well. No good team in any sport is worth a patoot unless they have good fundamentals.

                              Excellence should be rewarded. Effort should be encouraged. Competition should be encouraged. Mediocrity should not be praised and failure should not be accepted.

                              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                              AxtremusA 1 Reply Last reply
                              • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                                @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                                @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                                @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                                You can't make chicken salad out of chickenshit.

                                Kids entering college in many STEM programs today, need at least an introductory course in calculus, in high school. That's a problem in minority schools, in small rural schools and with homeschooled kids.

                                We must address this at both high school and college level.

                                As for the crappy teaching of math at the lower levels, K-8, we really need to return to what works, ideology crap be damned. Memorization of time tables, basic math concepts, word problems, drlls, etc.

                                Or you could take the kids who clearly suck at math and see what their drawing skills are. You'll catch a few more that way.

                                Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

                                Yet it's completely acceptable for them to be absolute crap at writing, drawing, gardening, home finance, and to never play an instrument in all of their childhood.

                                No parent in America would ever say, "okay well your Calc and AP English grades are good but what's with this B in art/creative writing/home ec/band?"

                                LuFins DadL Offline
                                LuFins DadL Offline
                                LuFins Dad
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #23

                                @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                                @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                                @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                                @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                                You can't make chicken salad out of chickenshit.

                                Kids entering college in many STEM programs today, need at least an introductory course in calculus, in high school. That's a problem in minority schools, in small rural schools and with homeschooled kids.

                                We must address this at both high school and college level.

                                As for the crappy teaching of math at the lower levels, K-8, we really need to return to what works, ideology crap be damned. Memorization of time tables, basic math concepts, word problems, drlls, etc.

                                Or you could take the kids who clearly suck at math and see what their drawing skills are. You'll catch a few more that way.

                                Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

                                Yet it's completely acceptable for them to be absolute crap at writing, drawing, gardening, home finance, and to never play an instrument in all of their childhood.

                                No parent in America would ever say, "okay well your Calc and AP English grades are good but what's with this B in art/creative writing/home ec/band?"

                                I get where you’re going with this, just 2 points.

                                1. Geometry is absolutely crucial for good visual art. Not that the art has to be perfectly geometric, in fact it shouldn’t be. But you should know the rules before you break them. Same with music and improvisation.

                                2. English and creative writing should also be an important skill for STEM students. When I was in HS, I was on the school’s JETS team (Junior Engineering and Technical Society). 8 students, 4 subject matters, 2 students per subject and each student had to cover 2 subjects. Chemistry, Biology, Physics, and English. Yes, English. The argument was that a good engineer needed to be able to accurately present their ideas, projects, etc… in a manner that was comprehensible to non-engineers.

                                Has that approach disappeared from schools these days?

                                The Brad

                                Aqua LetiferA CopperC 2 Replies Last reply
                                • LuFins DadL LuFins Dad

                                  @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                                  @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                                  @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                                  @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                                  You can't make chicken salad out of chickenshit.

                                  Kids entering college in many STEM programs today, need at least an introductory course in calculus, in high school. That's a problem in minority schools, in small rural schools and with homeschooled kids.

                                  We must address this at both high school and college level.

                                  As for the crappy teaching of math at the lower levels, K-8, we really need to return to what works, ideology crap be damned. Memorization of time tables, basic math concepts, word problems, drlls, etc.

                                  Or you could take the kids who clearly suck at math and see what their drawing skills are. You'll catch a few more that way.

                                  Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

                                  Yet it's completely acceptable for them to be absolute crap at writing, drawing, gardening, home finance, and to never play an instrument in all of their childhood.

                                  No parent in America would ever say, "okay well your Calc and AP English grades are good but what's with this B in art/creative writing/home ec/band?"

                                  I get where you’re going with this, just 2 points.

                                  1. Geometry is absolutely crucial for good visual art. Not that the art has to be perfectly geometric, in fact it shouldn’t be. But you should know the rules before you break them. Same with music and improvisation.

                                  2. English and creative writing should also be an important skill for STEM students. When I was in HS, I was on the school’s JETS team (Junior Engineering and Technical Society). 8 students, 4 subject matters, 2 students per subject and each student had to cover 2 subjects. Chemistry, Biology, Physics, and English. Yes, English. The argument was that a good engineer needed to be able to accurately present their ideas, projects, etc… in a manner that was comprehensible to non-engineers.

                                  Has that approach disappeared from schools these days?

                                  Aqua LetiferA Offline
                                  Aqua LetiferA Offline
                                  Aqua Letifer
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #24

                                  @LuFins-Dad said in The War On Math:

                                  @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                                  @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                                  @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                                  @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                                  You can't make chicken salad out of chickenshit.

                                  Kids entering college in many STEM programs today, need at least an introductory course in calculus, in high school. That's a problem in minority schools, in small rural schools and with homeschooled kids.

                                  We must address this at both high school and college level.

                                  As for the crappy teaching of math at the lower levels, K-8, we really need to return to what works, ideology crap be damned. Memorization of time tables, basic math concepts, word problems, drlls, etc.

                                  Or you could take the kids who clearly suck at math and see what their drawing skills are. You'll catch a few more that way.

                                  Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

                                  Yet it's completely acceptable for them to be absolute crap at writing, drawing, gardening, home finance, and to never play an instrument in all of their childhood.

                                  No parent in America would ever say, "okay well your Calc and AP English grades are good but what's with this B in art/creative writing/home ec/band?"

                                  I get where you’re going with this, just 2 points.

                                  1. Geometry is absolutely crucial for good visual art. Not that the art has to be perfectly geometric, in fact it shouldn’t be. But you should know the rules before you break them. Same with music and improvisation.

                                  Geometry is essential but that's covered in math classes. Perspective, proportion, shape and form are other very important building blocks.

                                  Which aren't taught because of 2 factors: "draw what you feel" has become the standard in public school art, and it's gotten that way because no parent gives a fuck. STEM or GTFO is how parents approach school curriculum.

                                  1. English and creative writing should also be an important skill for STEM students.

                                  Yeah well trust me it's not. The average worker out there can't imagine their way out of a paper bag.

                                  The argument was that a good engineer needed to be able to accurately present their ideas, projects, etc… in a manner that was comprehensible to non-engineers.

                                  Nobody, but nobody is learning that. Wanna know how I know? That's what I'm often hired to do and sadly, people think it's pointy black hat magic to be able to do so.

                                  Please love yourself.

                                  JollyJ AxtremusA 2 Replies Last reply
                                  • LuFins DadL LuFins Dad

                                    @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                                    @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                                    @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                                    @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                                    You can't make chicken salad out of chickenshit.

                                    Kids entering college in many STEM programs today, need at least an introductory course in calculus, in high school. That's a problem in minority schools, in small rural schools and with homeschooled kids.

                                    We must address this at both high school and college level.

                                    As for the crappy teaching of math at the lower levels, K-8, we really need to return to what works, ideology crap be damned. Memorization of time tables, basic math concepts, word problems, drlls, etc.

                                    Or you could take the kids who clearly suck at math and see what their drawing skills are. You'll catch a few more that way.

                                    Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

                                    Yet it's completely acceptable for them to be absolute crap at writing, drawing, gardening, home finance, and to never play an instrument in all of their childhood.

                                    No parent in America would ever say, "okay well your Calc and AP English grades are good but what's with this B in art/creative writing/home ec/band?"

                                    I get where you’re going with this, just 2 points.

                                    1. Geometry is absolutely crucial for good visual art. Not that the art has to be perfectly geometric, in fact it shouldn’t be. But you should know the rules before you break them. Same with music and improvisation.

                                    2. English and creative writing should also be an important skill for STEM students. When I was in HS, I was on the school’s JETS team (Junior Engineering and Technical Society). 8 students, 4 subject matters, 2 students per subject and each student had to cover 2 subjects. Chemistry, Biology, Physics, and English. Yes, English. The argument was that a good engineer needed to be able to accurately present their ideas, projects, etc… in a manner that was comprehensible to non-engineers.

                                    Has that approach disappeared from schools these days?

                                    CopperC Offline
                                    CopperC Offline
                                    Copper
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #25

                                    @LuFins-Dad said in The War On Math:

                                    good engineer needed to be able to accurately present their ideas

                                    Everybody should be able to present their ideas on Facebook and Twitter.

                                    With a minimum of words, real words, and reasonable spelling.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                                      @LuFins-Dad said in The War On Math:

                                      @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                                      @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                                      @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                                      @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                                      You can't make chicken salad out of chickenshit.

                                      Kids entering college in many STEM programs today, need at least an introductory course in calculus, in high school. That's a problem in minority schools, in small rural schools and with homeschooled kids.

                                      We must address this at both high school and college level.

                                      As for the crappy teaching of math at the lower levels, K-8, we really need to return to what works, ideology crap be damned. Memorization of time tables, basic math concepts, word problems, drlls, etc.

                                      Or you could take the kids who clearly suck at math and see what their drawing skills are. You'll catch a few more that way.

                                      Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

                                      Yet it's completely acceptable for them to be absolute crap at writing, drawing, gardening, home finance, and to never play an instrument in all of their childhood.

                                      No parent in America would ever say, "okay well your Calc and AP English grades are good but what's with this B in art/creative writing/home ec/band?"

                                      I get where you’re going with this, just 2 points.

                                      1. Geometry is absolutely crucial for good visual art. Not that the art has to be perfectly geometric, in fact it shouldn’t be. But you should know the rules before you break them. Same with music and improvisation.

                                      Geometry is essential but that's covered in math classes. Perspective, proportion, shape and form are other very important building blocks.

                                      Which aren't taught because of 2 factors: "draw what you feel" has become the standard in public school art, and it's gotten that way because no parent gives a fuck. STEM or GTFO is how parents approach school curriculum.

                                      1. English and creative writing should also be an important skill for STEM students.

                                      Yeah well trust me it's not. The average worker out there can't imagine their way out of a paper bag.

                                      The argument was that a good engineer needed to be able to accurately present their ideas, projects, etc… in a manner that was comprehensible to non-engineers.

                                      Nobody, but nobody is learning that. Wanna know how I know? That's what I'm often hired to do and sadly, people think it's pointy black hat magic to be able to do so.

                                      JollyJ Offline
                                      JollyJ Offline
                                      Jolly
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #26

                                      @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                                      @LuFins-Dad said in The War On Math:

                                      @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                                      @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                                      @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                                      @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                                      You can't make chicken salad out of chickenshit.

                                      Kids entering college in many STEM programs today, need at least an introductory course in calculus, in high school. That's a problem in minority schools, in small rural schools and with homeschooled kids.

                                      We must address this at both high school and college level.

                                      As for the crappy teaching of math at the lower levels, K-8, we really need to return to what works, ideology crap be damned. Memorization of time tables, basic math concepts, word problems, drlls, etc.

                                      Or you could take the kids who clearly suck at math and see what their drawing skills are. You'll catch a few more that way.

                                      Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

                                      Yet it's completely acceptable for them to be absolute crap at writing, drawing, gardening, home finance, and to never play an instrument in all of their childhood.

                                      No parent in America would ever say, "okay well your Calc and AP English grades are good but what's with this B in art/creative writing/home ec/band?"

                                      I get where you’re going with this, just 2 points.

                                      1. Geometry is absolutely crucial for good visual art. Not that the art has to be perfectly geometric, in fact it shouldn’t be. But you should know the rules before you break them. Same with music and improvisation.

                                      Geometry is essential but that's covered in math classes. Perspective, proportion, shape and form are other very important building blocks.

                                      Which aren't taught because of 2 factors: "draw what you feel" has become the standard in public school art, and it's gotten that way because no parent gives a fuck. STEM or GTFO is how parents approach school curriculum.

                                      1. English and creative writing should also be an important skill for STEM students.

                                      Yeah well trust me it's not. The average worker out there can't imagine their way out of a paper bag.

                                      The argument was that a good engineer needed to be able to accurately present their ideas, projects, etc… in a manner that was comprehensible to non-engineers.

                                      Nobody, but nobody is learning that. Wanna know how I know? That's what I'm often hired to do and sadly, people think it's pointy black hat magic to be able to do so.

                                      Then wear it with pride, lad! Wear it with pride.

                                      “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                      Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • LuFins DadL LuFins Dad

                                        @Doctor-Phibes said in The War On Math:

                                        @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                                        Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

                                        Half the population is below average intelligence.

                                        No, half the population is below mean intelligence.

                                        AxtremusA Away
                                        AxtremusA Away
                                        Axtremus
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #27

                                        @LuFins-Dad said in The War On Math:

                                        @Doctor-Phibes said in The War On Math:

                                        Half the population is below average intelligence.

                                        No, half the population is below mean intelligence.

                                        "Median", people, "median."

                                        HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                                        • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                                          @LuFins-Dad said in The War On Math:

                                          @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                                          @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                                          @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                                          @Jolly said in The War On Math:

                                          You can't make chicken salad out of chickenshit.

                                          Kids entering college in many STEM programs today, need at least an introductory course in calculus, in high school. That's a problem in minority schools, in small rural schools and with homeschooled kids.

                                          We must address this at both high school and college level.

                                          As for the crappy teaching of math at the lower levels, K-8, we really need to return to what works, ideology crap be damned. Memorization of time tables, basic math concepts, word problems, drlls, etc.

                                          Or you could take the kids who clearly suck at math and see what their drawing skills are. You'll catch a few more that way.

                                          Nobody should absolutely suck at math. Not up to and including high school level Algebra 1. Not if they are average intelligence.

                                          Yet it's completely acceptable for them to be absolute crap at writing, drawing, gardening, home finance, and to never play an instrument in all of their childhood.

                                          No parent in America would ever say, "okay well your Calc and AP English grades are good but what's with this B in art/creative writing/home ec/band?"

                                          I get where you’re going with this, just 2 points.

                                          1. Geometry is absolutely crucial for good visual art. Not that the art has to be perfectly geometric, in fact it shouldn’t be. But you should know the rules before you break them. Same with music and improvisation.

                                          Geometry is essential but that's covered in math classes. Perspective, proportion, shape and form are other very important building blocks.

                                          Which aren't taught because of 2 factors: "draw what you feel" has become the standard in public school art, and it's gotten that way because no parent gives a fuck. STEM or GTFO is how parents approach school curriculum.

                                          1. English and creative writing should also be an important skill for STEM students.

                                          Yeah well trust me it's not. The average worker out there can't imagine their way out of a paper bag.

                                          The argument was that a good engineer needed to be able to accurately present their ideas, projects, etc… in a manner that was comprehensible to non-engineers.

                                          Nobody, but nobody is learning that. Wanna know how I know? That's what I'm often hired to do and sadly, people think it's pointy black hat magic to be able to do so.

                                          AxtremusA Away
                                          AxtremusA Away
                                          Axtremus
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #28

                                          @Aqua-Letifer said in The War On Math:

                                          @LuFins-Dad said in The War On Math:

                                          ...
                                          The argument was that a good engineer needed to be able to accurately present their ideas, projects, etc… in a manner that was comprehensible to non-engineers.

                                          Nobody, but nobody is learning that. Wanna know how I know? That's what I'm often hired to do and sadly, people think it's pointy black hat magic to be able to do so.

                                          Be valuable enough in the technical aspects of engineering and the employer will hire you patent lawyers and technical writers to help take care of the nontechnical aspects of engineering for you. It's simple cost optimization. Why pay an exceptional technical talent $$$$$$ an hour to write simple English while you can pay a slightly above average writer $$ an hour to write simple English? You let that $$$$$$/hr. talent focus on doing the sort of things that only that $$$$$$/hr. talent can do, offload the less economically valuable tasks to cheaper labor. Same reason to hire secretaries and personal assistants to support senior executives, same reason to hire physician's assistants to support doctors.

                                          It's the $$$/hr. technical talents (and these happen to be the majority) who need to also be good at communications.

                                          LuFins DadL 1 Reply Last reply
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