Third Arrest for Trump
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We had a sitting President refuse to accept his re-election loss. I have no problem with the DOJ throwing the full weight of the law against him to prevent this from happening again.
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We had a sitting President refuse to accept his re-election loss. I have no problem with the DOJ throwing the full weight of the law against him to prevent this from happening again.
@89th said in Third Arrest?:
We had a sitting President refuse to accept his re-election loss.
He must have accepted it at some point, he appears to have moved out.
Since it didn't happen, you won't need the DOJ to prevent it from happening again.
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We had a sitting President refuse to accept his re-election loss. I have no problem with the DOJ throwing the full weight of the law against him to prevent this from happening again.
@89th said in Third Arrest?:
We had a sitting President refuse to accept his re-election loss. I have no problem with the DOJ throwing the full weight of the law against him to prevent this from happening again.
The issue at hand, explained nicely in the National Review piece, is about whether this is the full weight of the law, or an overreach of the law. Regardless of how satisfying a smiting of Trump may feel, there will be ripple effects if we criminalize dishonest political messaging.
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We had a sitting President refuse to accept his re-election loss. I have no problem with the DOJ throwing the full weight of the law against him to prevent this from happening again.
@89th said in Third Arrest?:
We had a sitting President refuse to accept his re-election loss. I have no problem with the DOJ throwing the full weight of the law against him to prevent this from happening again.
Excuse me, but did Trump leave office at the appointed time or not?
Now, if you'd like to talk about politicians thinking and believing an election was stolen, and actively using legal means and the art of public persuasion to overturn what they consider bogus results and then you are actually stupid enough to think that the DOJ should throw the full weight of the department into those situations...
Well, stud duck, you need to screw your hat down tight and take another dally around the saddle horn, because you have saddled up an absolute idiot of an idea, with an 18-wheeler load of examples of people that need to feel "the full weight of the Justice Department".
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Did Trump leave the Whitehouse? Was there some military coup I'm unaware of?
Have you decided to become the Minister of Misinformation, where you trample on all speech you do not agree with?
Are you a big fan of Lincoln's actions in 1862, when he suspended habeus corpus? Even doing so after SCOTUS ruled that action unconstitutional?
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Departing the White House is possible while not accepting your election loss. It's like someone who gets evicted but is screaming that their fake rent check was valid the whole way out.
As I've said many times. Imagine if Obama lost in 2012 and acted the way Trump did. You would be singing quite a different tune whereas my tune wouldn't change. I'm a Conservative but Trump's antics after he lost is 100% unacceptable and unnecessarily created the mess he's in now. But I guess it's all about ratings, baby.
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Anyway, this discussion should be about whether Trump broke laws and whether, if there is a grey area, it is good for the country to prosecute those grey areas. The stench of the real motivation here - to smack Trump - is unmistakeable. It would be good to think beyond that.
Education is extremely important.
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Departing the White House is possible while not accepting your election loss. It's like someone who gets evicted but is screaming that their fake rent check was valid the whole way out.
As I've said many times. Imagine if Obama lost in 2012 and acted the way Trump did. You would be singing quite a different tune whereas my tune wouldn't change. I'm a Conservative but Trump's antics after he lost is 100% unacceptable and unnecessarily created the mess he's in now. But I guess it's all about ratings, baby.
@89th said in Third Arrest?:
Departing the White House is possible while not accepting your election loss. It's like someone who gets evicted but is screaming that their fake rent check was valid the whole way out.
As I've said many times. Imagine if Obama lost in 2012 and acted the way Trump did. You would be singing quite a different tune whereas my tune wouldn't change. I'm a Conservative but Trump's antics after he lost is 100% unacceptable and unnecessarily created the mess he's in now. But I guess it's all about ratings, baby.
What's the difference between you and people who wish to use the power of the state to throttle any opinion you do not agree with?
That's not conservatism. That's fascism.
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Anyway, this discussion should be about whether Trump broke laws and whether, if there is a grey area, it is good for the country to prosecute those grey areas. The stench of the real motivation here - to smack Trump - is unmistakeable. It would be good to think beyond that.
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@Jon said in Third Arrest?:
From Google:
18 U.S.C. § 242
This provision makes it a crime for someone acting under color of law to willfully deprive a person of a right or privilege protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States."Cage the Fat Man?"
Wrong:
18 U.S. Code § 241 - Conspiracy against rights
If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same; or
If two or more persons go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege so secured—
They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
The judge in this case has a history of sentencing above guidelines.
There's hope for you Jon!
Hang him!
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BTW, for 89:
2000 Presidential Election
Joe Biden, 2013: Al Gore “was elected president of the United States of America.”
Joe Biden, 2016: “I think [Gore] won.”
Hillary Clinton, 2016: The Supreme Court “took away a presidency.”
Barack Obama, 2005: “Not every vote” was counted.
Bill Clinton, 2001: “The only way they could win the election was to stop the voting in Florida.”
Jimmy Carter, 2005: “There’s no doubt in my mind that Al Gore was elected president.”
Al Gore, 2017: “Actually I think I carried Florida.”
Jamie Raskin, 2003: George W. Bush was the “first court-appointed president.”
Terry McAuliffe, 2004: “We won that election!”
Debbie Wasserman Schultz, 2016: “The Supreme Court elected the president. Al Gore won the state of Florida in 2000.”
2004 Presidential Election
Hillary Clinton, 2005: “It’s fair to say that there are many legitimate questions about” the “accuracy” and “integrity” of America’s election system, “and they’re not confined to the state of Ohio.”
Howard Dean, 2006: “I’m not confident” the election “was fairly decided” because “the machines were not reliable.”
Jerry Nadler, 2005: “The right to vote has been stolen from qualified voters.”
Sheila Jackson Lee, 2004: “We cannot declare that the election of November 2, 2004 was free and clear and transparent and real.”
Maxine Waters, 2005: “Problems in the Ohio election” could have been “outcome determinative.”
2016 Presidential Election
Joe Biden, 2019: “I absolutely” agree that Trump is an “illegitimate president.”
Hillary Clinton, 2019: The election was “stolen.”
Jimmy Carter, 2019: “Trump didn’t actually win the election in 2016. He lost the election and was put into office because the Russians interference on his behalf.”
Kamala Harris, 2019: “Absolutely right” that Trump “didn’t really win.”
Karine Jean-Pierre, 2016: It was a “stolen election.”
Jerry Nadler, 2017: It was a “tainted” and “illegitimate” election. -
Anyway, this discussion should be about whether Trump broke laws and whether, if there is a grey area, it is good for the country to prosecute those grey areas. The stench of the real motivation here - to smack Trump - is unmistakeable. It would be good to think beyond that.
@Horace said in Third Arrest?:
Anyway, this discussion should be about whether Trump broke laws and whether, if there is a grey area, it is good for the country to prosecute those grey areas. The stench of the real motivation here - to smack Trump - is unmistakeable. It would be good to think beyond that.
Agreed. I think there's a pretty clear case that the charges against Trump (defrauding the US, disenfranchising voters, obstructing official proceedings) are valid. It's more than just a sound bite or an opinion, it was Trump doing these things while knowing they were false.
@Jolly the list of politicians on both sides complaining about an election loss isn't new. It's when a sitting President refuses to accept his re-election loss, and the statements and actions he took to prevent the winner from proceeding, that's where this is different than just a statement by a politician about an election loss.
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@Horace said in Third Arrest?:
Anyway, this discussion should be about whether Trump broke laws and whether, if there is a grey area, it is good for the country to prosecute those grey areas. The stench of the real motivation here - to smack Trump - is unmistakeable. It would be good to think beyond that.
Agreed. I think there's a pretty clear case that the charges against Trump (defrauding the US, disenfranchising voters, obstructing official proceedings) are valid. It's more than just a sound bite or an opinion, it was Trump doing these things while knowing they were false.
@Jolly the list of politicians on both sides complaining about an election loss isn't new. It's when a sitting President refuses to accept his re-election loss, and the statements and actions he took to prevent the winner from proceeding, that's where this is different than just a statement by a politician about an election loss.
@89th said in Third Arrest?:
(defrauding the US
https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/08/this-trump-indictment-shouldnt-stand/
The indictment relates in detail Trump’s deceptions, but that doesn’t mean they constitute criminal fraud. As the Supreme Court reaffirmed just a few weeks ago, fraud in federal criminal law is a scheme to swindle victims out of money or tangible property. Mendacious rhetoric in seeking to retain political office is damnable — and, again, impeachable — but it’s not criminal fraud, although that is what Smith has charged. Indeed, assuming a prosecutor could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump hadn’t actually convinced himself that the election was stolen from him (good luck with that), hyperbole and even worse are protected political speech.
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/21-1170_b97d.pdf
We have held, however, that the federal fraud statutes criminalize only schemes to deprive people of traditional property interests. Cleveland v. United States, 531 U. S. 12, 24 (2000). Because “potentially valuable economic information” “necessary to make discretionary economic deci- sions” is not a traditional property interest, we now hold that the right-to-control theory is not a valid basis for liability under §1343. Accordingly, we reverse the Second Circuit’s judgment.
@89th also said:
It's when a sitting President refuses to accept his re-election loss
Hinderaker:
The indictment repeatedly alleges that Trump “knowingly” made false claims about the election being stolen in various states. It supports these assertions with evidence that someone had told Trump that his claims were untrue. But other people were telling Trump that the allegations of a stolen election were accurate. I think it is highly probable that Trump sincerely believed that voter fraud occurred on a massive scale and cost him the election.
The fact that he was "sitting" at the time of his denial should be irrelevant to the indictment.
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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OTOH - Barr says the indictment is fair.
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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On the bright side, this indictment is a rare political win/win. I'm not sure anybody with some emotional skin in the game is truly upset over this meal of partisan red meat. Detached people who would prefer functional American politics may be upset, but they don't do much of the talking.
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@George-K said in Third Arrest?:
OTOH - Barr says the indictment is fair.
“At first I wasn’t sure, but I have come to believe that he knew well that he had lost the election,” Barr said.
“The government has assumed the burden of proving that. The government in their indictment takes the position that he had actual knowledge that he had lost the election and the election wasn’t stolen through fraud. And they’re going to have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt.”
I hope the government's job is more specific than to prove Trump believed in the absence of voting fraud. Maybe they can prove he didn't believe specific allegations, but I doubt he thought the election was free and clear of any voting fraud.
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@89th said in Third Arrest?:
(defrauding the US
https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/08/this-trump-indictment-shouldnt-stand/
The indictment relates in detail Trump’s deceptions, but that doesn’t mean they constitute criminal fraud. As the Supreme Court reaffirmed just a few weeks ago, fraud in federal criminal law is a scheme to swindle victims out of money or tangible property. Mendacious rhetoric in seeking to retain political office is damnable — and, again, impeachable — but it’s not criminal fraud, although that is what Smith has charged. Indeed, assuming a prosecutor could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump hadn’t actually convinced himself that the election was stolen from him (good luck with that), hyperbole and even worse are protected political speech.
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/21-1170_b97d.pdf
We have held, however, that the federal fraud statutes criminalize only schemes to deprive people of traditional property interests. Cleveland v. United States, 531 U. S. 12, 24 (2000). Because “potentially valuable economic information” “necessary to make discretionary economic deci- sions” is not a traditional property interest, we now hold that the right-to-control theory is not a valid basis for liability under §1343. Accordingly, we reverse the Second Circuit’s judgment.
@89th also said:
It's when a sitting President refuses to accept his re-election loss
Hinderaker:
The indictment repeatedly alleges that Trump “knowingly” made false claims about the election being stolen in various states. It supports these assertions with evidence that someone had told Trump that his claims were untrue. But other people were telling Trump that the allegations of a stolen election were accurate. I think it is highly probable that Trump sincerely believed that voter fraud occurred on a massive scale and cost him the election.
The fact that he was "sitting" at the time of his denial should be irrelevant to the indictment.
