Trump to be indicted - again.
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@Axtremus said in Trump to be indicted - again.:
WaPo published a piece on why Trump was charged while HRC, Biden, and Pence were not:
There is a lot in that article.
There is also this bit on what Trump has not been charged:
Notably, however, the indictment does not charge Trump with the illegal retention of any of the 197 documents he returned to the archives. That shows that if Trump had simply returned all the classified documents he had, he probably never would have been charged with any crimes, said Robert Mintz, a former federal prosecutor.
“This is not a case about what documents were taken, it’s about what former president Trump did after the government sought to retrieve those documents,” said Mintz, who noted that willful-retention cases often hinge on how much evidence prosecutors can find that a person deliberately hid material or refused to give it back.Thanks for that. He should’ve taken a hammer to the boxes.
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Bill Barr says if even half of the indictment is true, Trump is toast. Guy who lead Trump’s DoJ.
“ It’s a very detailed indictment. And it’s very, very damning, and this idea of presenting Trump as a victim here, a victim of a witch hunt is ridiculous.”
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@xenon said in Trump to be indicted - again.:
Bill Barr says if even half of the indictment is true, Trump is toast. Guy who lead Trump’s DoJ.
“ It’s a very detailed indictment. And it’s very, very damning, and this idea of presenting Trump as a victim here, a victim of a witch hunt is ridiculous.”
I always got the feeling that Barr took the job out of his sense of justice and duty, not because of personal ambition. His book is interesting, because I think it gives a fair handed assessment of trumps behavior in the White House as well as Barry’s feeling toward the man himself.
That said, both he and McCarthy join in their feelings that the indictments are devastating.
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Now, I know that Ambassador Bolton is not a Pres. Trump fan, but here is his analysis on the situation.
https://www.npr.org/2023/06/12/1181653609/trump-indictment-john-bolton
On Republicans' attacks on the Justice Department
Take it for granted Democrats don't prosecute Democrats, believe all that, that Hillary [Clinton] should have been prosecuted, that Joe Biden should be prosecuted and they weren't and that's an injustice. Accept that for the sake of argument and then ask these (Republican) candidates the question: Does that mean you give Donald Trump a free pass? Is your answer to the double standard problem to have no standard at all?
Republicans used to believe if you didn't prosecute criminals you'd have more crime, and I think that insight was right then and it's right now. The way you correct the double standard is to take the politics out of the decision-making, and if you do that, Donald Trump should be at trial as soon as possible.
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What you cite as his points are valid.
The problem is that offenders of the law have skated in the past, making the (probably legitimate) of Trump seem political and one sided.
As (I think) NRO said, the fact that you excused this behavior in the past is not sufficient reason to excuse it again.
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Just listened to Shapiro break it down. It’s frigging bad.
But yeah, this goes back to Comey deciding not to punish HRC. Sorry, but in the interest of just even the image of legitimacy, you have to prosecute these incidents. All of them.
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It's horrible. But, as you suggest, is it more horrible than having your private server accessed by "foreign actors?" Is it more horrible than having classified documents found on the laptop of your aide's estranged husband's laptop?
I don't know.
The only thing more outrageous than Trump's behavior is the fact that Department of "Justice" didn't pursue the other transgressions. When Comey didn't, he, in one press conference, destroyed all the credibility of the DOJ. The lack of prosecution of others, McCabe, et al, completed the Jenga collapse.
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John Yoo:
https://whatthehellisgoingon.substack.com/p/wth-the-trump-indictment
What about the case on the merits?
If it was anyone else other that a former President, I would be telling the defendant to go get a good plea bargain while you can. Usually, people who are prosecuted for this kind of crime, taking classified information, have a lot less evidence in the indictment. I mean, you’ve got pictures of the documents themselves in unsecured facilities. You’ve got apparently tape recordings of the defendant talking about how he’s got the documents and how he knows they’re still classified. This is the most damaging of evidence in a way because you don’t need to rely on witnesses’ valuable memory, you don’t have to worry about the witness changing stories on the stand. You’ve got physical photographic proof or recorded proof of Trump himself talking about how he shouldn’t have these documents, how he knows that they’re classified, and he’s violating the law.
How do you respond to Trump’s complaint that neither Hillary Clinton nor any others have been prosecuted for the same or similar crimes?
JY: Trump raises a good point. It just doesn't get you anywhere in the courtroom. You can't show up in the courtroom and say, "I'm innocent because you didn't charge that other person over there." The prosecution is about whether Donald Trump is guilty. So this claim of selective prosecution, it never works, but it's a good argument to make in the political sphere. I mean, you can say that all you want in the political sphere. Maybe it gets you charged or maybe it's why his support seems to go up every time he's gotten indicted, which is why he's looks like he's made sure he is going to get indicted two or three more times before their caucuses.
Much more at the link about comparing Biden, whether it's appropriate to indict Trump, and "can a felon be president?", etc.
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If you give an inch you have to give a mile. Trump is clearly in criminal territory. While Hilary’s stuff was a grey area - it underscores the importance of enforcing a very strict line for politicians.
They should be held to the highest standard. Any whiff of impropriety and they should be sacked. We have no lack of politicians.
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What does the timeline look like? Are they going to expedite the trial?
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A long thread by a former Assistant US Attorney
Will Scharf
@willscharfI am a former Assistant U.S. Attorney, worked on two Supreme Court confirmations, and clerked for two federal appellate judges.
The indictment and case against President Trump is outrageous and shocking.
But let’s get into the details.
Here are my 6 key points on the case:
(1) Interplay between the Espionage Act and the Presidential Records Act
A lot of my friends have spoken insightfully about the scope of the Presidential Records Act. I’d direct you to Mike Davis’s (@mrddmia) commentary on the subject, and also Michael Bekesha of @JudicialWatch's piece yesterday in the @WSJ about the Clinton Sock Drawer Case.
Basically, their argument distills down to the idea that the President’s authority to retain Personal Records, as well as his rights to access his Presidential Records, make it impossible to prosecute him under the Espionage Act section at issue here, § 793(e), because the government cannot prove “unauthorized possession,” as required under the statute.
I want to make a different point relating to the intent elements in § 793(e) of the Espionage Act, the statute Trump is being charged under.
Section 793(e) requires the government to prove that the Defendant KNEW he had National Defense Information (NDI) in his possession, and also that the Defendant KNEW that there was a government official entitled to receive the Information, and also that the Defendant then WILLFULLY failed to deliver it to that official.
This is a very high set of mens rea bars to jump, in any circumstance. Proving a Defendant’s intent and knowledge can often be tough. But it’s even tougher here.
The Presidential Records Act sets up a system where the president designates all records that he creates either as Presidential or Personal Records. 44 U.S.C. § 2203(b). A former president is supposed to turn over his Presidential Records to NARA, and he has the right to keep his Personal Records.
Based on the documents I’ve read and his actions that I’ve read about, I believe that Trump viewed his “boxes” as his Personal Records under the PRA. There are statements he made, quoted in the Indictment, that support that view. If Trump considered the contents of these boxes to be of purely personal interest, hence his designation of them as Personal Records, did he knowingly retain NDI?
Did he really think these documents, like years old briefing notes and random maps, jumbled together with his letters, news clippings, scribbled notes, and random miscellaneous items, “could be used to the injury of the United States”? Or did he just think of them as mementos of his time in office, his Personal Records of the four years, akin to a journal or diary?
If he thought these boxes were his Personal Records, he may have believed that NARA simply had no right to receive them at all. Meaning that he did not willfully withhold anything from an official he knew had the right to receive them. Because he didn’t believe that anyone had the right to receive them.
By breathlessly bandying around classification levels and markings, the Special Counsel is trying to make this case seem much, much simpler than it is. Classification levels do not automatically make something NDI, and having classified documents in your possession is not enough to convict here.
This is not a matter of
[Classified Documents]+[Mar a Lago bathroom]=Conviction.That’s what they want you to think, and that’s the media’s inch deep view, typically, but it’s dead wrong.
More than anything, this case hinges on the ability of the Special Counsel to prove beyond a reasonable doubt aspects of Trump’s state of mind that will be extremely difficult to prove in this case because of his obligations and rights under the Presidential Records Act. In addition to all of the usual issues.
(2) Classification and National Defense Information
I want to reiterate this point because it’s really important:
Just because something is classified—even Top Secret, SCI, NOFORN, FISA, pick your alphabet soup—does not mean that it is National Defense Information (NDI) within the meaning of the Espionage Act.
NDI, for the purposes of an Espionage Act § 793(e) prosecution, is defined as one of a long list of items “relating to the national defense which information the possessor had reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation.”
A lot of the documents listed in the indictment are older, or seemingly random. Would Trump in 2022 have had reason to know that a 2019 briefing document “related to various foreign countries, with handwritten annotation in black marker” could harm the US or help foreign countries?
Tough to say, because we can’t see the documents, but that’s a question the jury is going to have to decide in the end, and Trump’s legal team needs to drive home this point over and over again:
Classification is not dispositive in this case.
Harm to America or benefit to foreign countries is the standard.
Anyone who has worked around government knows that overclassification is a huge problem. A ton of documents end up being classified because of arcane technical rules that may not reflect the real world.
If the president were to ask the Navy what’s for lunch for the next week at Coronado, for example, I’ll bet you the answer comes back with a classification marker on it.
Not everything classified constitutes NDI. Focus on the actual legal standards and statutory language, not a bunch of scary looking all caps acronyms.
(3) Walt Nauta and DOJ Misconduct
Far and away the most troubling side story to emerge from this saga so far are the allegations made by Trump aide and co-defendant Walt Nauta’s lawyer last week.
You may have missed it if you blinked. Not surprisingly, the mainstream media has mostly buried this one.
Nauta’s lawyer, Stanley Woodward alleged in a court filing that during a meeting with prosecutors about his client’s case, the head of the Counterintelligence Section of DOJ’s National Security Division Jay Bratt “suggested Woodward’s judicial application [for a DC Superior Court judgeship] might be considered more favorably if he and his client cooperated against Trump.”
If true, and I find it hard to believe that Woodward just made the whole thing up, this is wild misconduct. Truly wild. It could undermine the entire case against both Trump and Nauta. It could end careers at DOJ if fairly investigated.
And a word on Stanley Woodward: I don’t know him, but I know of him. He is a highly accomplished lawyer. Spent a decade at Akin Gump, a top law firm, clerked on the DC Circuit, and has very substantial experience in government investigations. This is not some fly by night TV lawyer. He’s a real deal legal heavyweight, and he’s leveling an extremely serious allegation of misconduct against a senior official at DOJ.
Watch this issue as the case against Trump and Nauta begins to move. You’ll hear more about it, I’m sure.
(4) Attorney Client Privilege
The indictment relies on a significant amount of information received, in one form or another, from one of Trump’s lawyers, Evan Corcoran, who was compelled to testify in front of the grand jury. According to news reports, the argument for breaching the privilege was the crime fraud exception. Let’s talk a little about it.
The attorney client privilege protects from disclosure to the government confidential communications made between clients and their attorneys. It has been around for centuries, and is considered a core protection in our system of justice.
The crime fraud exception, though, allows the attorney client privilege to be broken in rare circumstances when two requirements are met:
First, there needs to be a prima facie showing that the client was engaged in criminal conduct.
Second, the client has to have obtained or sought the attorney’s assistance in furthering that crime.
I haven’t seen DOJ’s filings on Corcoran, but I’d be interested to know how they argued this. First of all, what was the crime they used as a predicate? Was it unlawful retention of the documents? If so, there’s nothing in the indictment that I can see indicating that Corcoran’s communications with Trump would have furthered that in a way that would justify breaching privilege.
Was it obstruction? I think this is the most likely option: they pierced attorney client privilege using obstruction as the predicate crime for the crime fraud exception, saying that Trump’s conversations with Corcoran amounted to him attempting to enlist Corcoran in a criminal obstruction scheme.
Now, we’ll see how that goes for the Government. I have my doubts.
But if that’s the case, just reading this indictment, it feels like the obstruction charges may have been structured specifically in part just to get Corcoran’s testimony in, to help buttress what would otherwise be a much weaker case against Trump on the substantive charges.
In any case, the Special Counsel is going to have to show why the communications in question were a solicitation by Trump to Corcoran to join him in criminal acts, as opposed to Trump asking a lawyer he hired to advise him on his legal defense, to tell him what his options were, or to outline what defensive steps might be possible, and what was done by others in previous cases like Hillary’s emails.
Reading the conversations in the indictment, they sound a lot more like honest attorney client communications than they do crime fraud to me, even with all ellipses and modifications.
I expect a motion by Trump’s legal team on this issue, and if they win that will cut the guts out of much of this case. Very tough to prove up intent and willfulness the way the government needs to without Corcoran, at least based on what we see in the indictment.
(5) Timing: Why now?
This is not a legal defect in the indictment, but it’s an important point. Why are they bringing this case now?
They know that Trump is the leading candidate for president. They know he’s beating Biden in the polls. They must know how bad it looks for a sitting president’s DOJ to indict that president’s primary political opponent.
DOJ has long had policies in place to prevent new indictments from being brought, or overt investigative acts being committed, in the months preceding an election in order to avoid the appearance of political timing. The same reasoning clearly applies here.
They didn’t have a statute of limitations issue, they could have easily just announced the facts as they saw them after the search warrant was executed and all the documents were recovered, and then held off on further investigative acts and the indictment until after November 2024.
The fact that they didn’t is strong evidence to me that a big part of this is the burning desire among many on the left to “Get Trump.” They don’t care about the law, they don’t care about the facts, they don’t care about norms or propriety or anything else. They just want Trump in cuffs.
It’s not the way things are supposed to work, and the fact that our law enforcement and intelligence apparatuses are being weaponized in this way against a leading presidential contender is truly a black mark on them and on our republic.
If I were Trump’s lawyers, I would consider moving to continue further proceedings until after November 2024. Let the case sit. The country doesn’t need to litigate this right now. We need to pick our next president. If DOJ won’t agree to that continuance, let them explain why this has to happen right now. There is no good reason that I can see.
(6) Jack Smith: Why him?
If you could pick any lawyer in the country to handle a controversial case against a former president, a case involving an aggressive, unprecedented use of the Espionage Act, a controversial law in and of itself, what lawyer would you pick?
You’d probably want just a consummate professional, right? Career prosecutor with no political profile at all? White knight in shining armor who’s never lost a case?
Or you could pick Jack Smith.
I follow law stuff pretty closely. I’m a huge nerd. I knew who Jack Smith was before this, and the specific case he is most closely associated with in the public eye was the prosecution of Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell.
Remember that one? Using a very aggressive interpretation of the scope of federal bribery and honest services fraud statutes, Smith nuked the career and life of a popular Republican politician, before having all his convictions overturned by the Supreme Court in a 9-0 opinion.
You read that right, all nine Supreme Court justices smacked Jack Smith down for an overzealous, legally defective prosecution of a Republican politician. SCOTUS gutted him so badly that DOJ didn’t even try to re-try the case. They just dropped it.
And his wife is a leftist filmmaker who produced a hagiography of Michelle Obama.
And he currently lives in the Netherlands. Didn’t they have anyone else good on this side of the Atlantic?
If this is not a political prosecution, if Merrick Garland wasn’t just trying to “Get Trump,” then why was Jack Smith the pick? Like the timing, the decision just reeks of politics.
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The main part of the charge, if I understand, is not that he had classified documents, but that he knew he had them and REFUSED to return them. I think that is the difference between President Trump and other who have been mentioned.
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He thought he had the right to keep them.
Which is why, if this were anybody besides Trump, the issue would have been litigated out in court.
Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion. -
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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@George-K said in Trump to be indicted - again.:
@Jolly said in Trump to be indicted - again.:
He thought he had the right to keep them.
Scharf addresses the mens rea aspect in the long twitter thread I posted - under #1.
Yep.
BTW, Scharf is right.
