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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Trump to be indicted - again.

Trump to be indicted - again.

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  • George KG George K

    @Mik said in Trump to be indicted - again.:

    @George-K he does have a remarkable resilience.

    How did you get @Jon's password?

    LuFins DadL Offline
    LuFins DadL Offline
    LuFins Dad
    wrote on last edited by
    #72

    @George-K said in Trump to be indicted - again.:

    @Mik said in Trump to be indicted - again.:

    @George-K he does have a remarkable resilience.

    How did you get @Jon's password?

    1dh!tth@t ? Pretty simple, really…

    The Brad

    1 Reply Last reply
    • George KG Offline
      George KG Offline
      George K
      wrote on last edited by
      #73

      The indictment lists these counts:

      • 31 counts of willful retention of classified documents
      • 1 count of conspiracy to obstruct justice
      • 1 count of withholding a document or record
      • 1 count of corruptly concealing a document or record
      • 1 count of concealing a document in a federal investigation
      • 1 count of scheme to conceal
      • and one count of making false statements and representations.

      We know for a fact that Pence and Biden have exposure on the basis of retention of classified documents. Pence's home, Biden's office, Biden's lawyers' office, and Biden's garage have all found to have classified documents.

      Why are they not being investigated by a grand jury?

      Granted the obstruction charges are a whole 'nother thing, but they are separate charges, 6 of them. Had Trump not (allegedly) obstructed, would have been charged with the first 31?

      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

      AxtremusA 1 Reply Last reply
      • George KG George K

        The indictment lists these counts:

        • 31 counts of willful retention of classified documents
        • 1 count of conspiracy to obstruct justice
        • 1 count of withholding a document or record
        • 1 count of corruptly concealing a document or record
        • 1 count of concealing a document in a federal investigation
        • 1 count of scheme to conceal
        • and one count of making false statements and representations.

        We know for a fact that Pence and Biden have exposure on the basis of retention of classified documents. Pence's home, Biden's office, Biden's lawyers' office, and Biden's garage have all found to have classified documents.

        Why are they not being investigated by a grand jury?

        Granted the obstruction charges are a whole 'nother thing, but they are separate charges, 6 of them. Had Trump not (allegedly) obstructed, would have been charged with the first 31?

        AxtremusA Away
        AxtremusA Away
        Axtremus
        wrote on last edited by Axtremus
        #74

        @George-K said in Trump to be indicted - again.:

        • 31 counts of willful retention of classified documents

        ...
        We know for a fact that Pence and Biden have exposure on the basis of retention of classified documents. ...
        Why are they not being investigated by a grand jury?

        You missed the word "willful."

        LuFins DadL George KG 2 Replies Last reply
        • X Offline
          X Offline
          xenon
          wrote on last edited by
          #75

          I think there’s a big difference between “should have known better” and “fuck them, I’m taking this”.

          I don’t know enough about the details to know what happened in this latest case - but I’m guessing it’s more of the latter.

          1 Reply Last reply
          • AxtremusA Axtremus

            @George-K said in Trump to be indicted - again.:

            • 31 counts of willful retention of classified documents

            ...
            We know for a fact that Pence and Biden have exposure on the basis of retention of classified documents. ...
            Why are they not being investigated by a grand jury?

            You missed the word "willful."

            LuFins DadL Offline
            LuFins DadL Offline
            LuFins Dad
            wrote on last edited by
            #76

            @Axtremus said in Trump to be indicted - again.:

            @George-K said in Trump to be indicted - again.:

            • 31 counts of willful retention of classified documents

            ...
            We know for a fact that Pence and Biden have exposure on the basis of retention of classified documents. ...
            Why are they not being investigated by a grand jury?

            You missed the word "willful."

            That argument might hold water for Pence, but not with Biden, based on the reactions of many of his Congressional peers…

            Beyond that, I fully support Trump serving time for breaking these laws if proven beyond a read doubt in a fair and impartial court.

            I’m just also for the same for Pence, Biden, and Hilary. The problem goes back to Comey…

            The Brad

            1 Reply Last reply
            • AxtremusA Axtremus

              @George-K said in Trump to be indicted - again.:

              • 31 counts of willful retention of classified documents

              ...
              We know for a fact that Pence and Biden have exposure on the basis of retention of classified documents. ...
              Why are they not being investigated by a grand jury?

              You missed the word "willful."

              George KG Offline
              George KG Offline
              George K
              wrote on last edited by
              #77

              @Axtremus said in Trump to be indicted - again.:

              You missed the word "willful."

              Fair point. I wonder what the statute says.

              "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

              The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

              1 Reply Last reply
              • JollyJ Offline
                JollyJ Offline
                Jolly
                wrote on last edited by
                #78

                Like or dislike Trump, if you nail his hide to the wall, while letting half of Washington walk, then what many (and I mean a significant portion of the country) think about the DOJ and The Swamp which works in the Beltway, is inarguably and irrevocably true.

                “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                1 Reply Last reply
                • AxtremusA Away
                  AxtremusA Away
                  Axtremus
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #79

                  WaPo published a piece on why Trump was charged while HRC, Biden, and Pence were not:

                  https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/06/11/clinton-biden-classified-documents-trump-indictment/

                  There is a lot in that article.

                  There is also this bit on what Trump has not been charged:

                  Notably, however, the indictment does not charge Trump with the illegal retention of any of the 197 documents he returned to the archives.
That shows that if Trump had simply returned all the classified documents he had, he probably never would have been charged with any crimes, said Robert Mintz, a former federal prosecutor.
                  “This is not a case about what documents were taken, it’s about what former president Trump did after the government sought to retrieve those documents,” said Mintz, who noted that willful-retention cases often hinge on how much evidence prosecutors can find that a person deliberately hid material or refused to give it back.

                  George KG CopperC 2 Replies Last reply
                  • JollyJ Offline
                    JollyJ Offline
                    Jolly
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #80

                    WaPo is also known as Bezo's Washington Compost and is a Democrat paper. Do not expect anything but Left-biased coverage from them, especially in any opinion piece.

                    “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                    Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • AxtremusA Axtremus

                      WaPo published a piece on why Trump was charged while HRC, Biden, and Pence were not:

                      https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/06/11/clinton-biden-classified-documents-trump-indictment/

                      There is a lot in that article.

                      There is also this bit on what Trump has not been charged:

                      Notably, however, the indictment does not charge Trump with the illegal retention of any of the 197 documents he returned to the archives.
That shows that if Trump had simply returned all the classified documents he had, he probably never would have been charged with any crimes, said Robert Mintz, a former federal prosecutor.
                      “This is not a case about what documents were taken, it’s about what former president Trump did after the government sought to retrieve those documents,” said Mintz, who noted that willful-retention cases often hinge on how much evidence prosecutors can find that a person deliberately hid material or refused to give it back.

                      George KG Offline
                      George KG Offline
                      George K
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #81

                      @Axtremus said in Trump to be indicted - again.:

                      WaPo published a piece on why Trump was charged while HRC, Biden, and Pence were not:

                      https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/06/11/clinton-biden-classified-documents-trump-indictment/

                      There is a lot in that article.

                      There is also this bit on what Trump has not been charged:

                      Notably, however, the indictment does not charge Trump with the illegal retention of any of the 197 documents he returned to the archives.
That shows that if Trump had simply returned all the classified documents he had, he probably never would have been charged with any crimes, said Robert Mintz, a former federal prosecutor.
                      “This is not a case about what documents were taken, it’s about what former president Trump did after the government sought to retrieve those documents,” said Mintz, who noted that willful-retention cases often hinge on how much evidence prosecutors can find that a person deliberately hid material or refused to give it back.

                      Thanks for that. He should’ve taken a hammer to the boxes.

                      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • X Offline
                        X Offline
                        xenon
                        wrote on last edited by xenon
                        #82

                        Bill Barr says if even half of the indictment is true, Trump is toast. Guy who lead Trump’s DoJ.

                        “ It’s a very detailed indictment. And it’s very, very damning, and this idea of presenting Trump as a victim here, a victim of a witch hunt is ridiculous.”

                        George KG 1 Reply Last reply
                        • X xenon

                          Bill Barr says if even half of the indictment is true, Trump is toast. Guy who lead Trump’s DoJ.

                          “ It’s a very detailed indictment. And it’s very, very damning, and this idea of presenting Trump as a victim here, a victim of a witch hunt is ridiculous.”

                          George KG Offline
                          George KG Offline
                          George K
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #83

                          @xenon said in Trump to be indicted - again.:

                          Bill Barr says if even half of the indictment is true, Trump is toast. Guy who lead Trump’s DoJ.

                          “ It’s a very detailed indictment. And it’s very, very damning, and this idea of presenting Trump as a victim here, a victim of a witch hunt is ridiculous.”

                          I always got the feeling that Barr took the job out of his sense of justice and duty, not because of personal ambition. His book is interesting, because I think it gives a fair handed assessment of trumps behavior in the White House as well as Barry’s feeling toward the man himself.

                          That said, both he and McCarthy join in their feelings that the indictments are devastating.

                          "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                          The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • AxtremusA Axtremus

                            WaPo published a piece on why Trump was charged while HRC, Biden, and Pence were not:

                            https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/06/11/clinton-biden-classified-documents-trump-indictment/

                            There is a lot in that article.

                            There is also this bit on what Trump has not been charged:

                            Notably, however, the indictment does not charge Trump with the illegal retention of any of the 197 documents he returned to the archives.
That shows that if Trump had simply returned all the classified documents he had, he probably never would have been charged with any crimes, said Robert Mintz, a former federal prosecutor.
                            “This is not a case about what documents were taken, it’s about what former president Trump did after the government sought to retrieve those documents,” said Mintz, who noted that willful-retention cases often hinge on how much evidence prosecutors can find that a person deliberately hid material or refused to give it back.

                            CopperC Offline
                            CopperC Offline
                            Copper
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #84

                            @Axtremus said in Trump to be indicted - again.:

                            hinge on how much evidence prosecutors can find that a person deliberately hid

                            There were pictures of the "evidence" in all the papers. It wasn't very well hidden.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • George KG Offline
                              George KG Offline
                              George K
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #85

                              Wow.

                              Vivek Ramaswamy on Trump's indictment:

                              Link to video

                              "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                              The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • taiwan_girlT Offline
                                taiwan_girlT Offline
                                taiwan_girl
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #86

                                Now, I know that Ambassador Bolton is not a Pres. Trump fan, but here is his analysis on the situation.

                                https://www.npr.org/2023/06/12/1181653609/trump-indictment-john-bolton

                                On Republicans' attacks on the Justice Department

                                Take it for granted Democrats don't prosecute Democrats, believe all that, that Hillary [Clinton] should have been prosecuted, that Joe Biden should be prosecuted and they weren't and that's an injustice. Accept that for the sake of argument and then ask these (Republican) candidates the question: Does that mean you give Donald Trump a free pass? Is your answer to the double standard problem to have no standard at all?

                                Republicans used to believe if you didn't prosecute criminals you'd have more crime, and I think that insight was right then and it's right now. The way you correct the double standard is to take the politics out of the decision-making, and if you do that, Donald Trump should be at trial as soon as possible.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • George KG Offline
                                  George KG Offline
                                  George K
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #87

                                  What you cite as his points are valid.

                                  The problem is that offenders of the law have skated in the past, making the (probably legitimate) of Trump seem political and one sided.

                                  As (I think) NRO said, the fact that you excused this behavior in the past is not sufficient reason to excuse it again.

                                  "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                  The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • MikM Offline
                                    MikM Offline
                                    Mik
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #88

                                    Avoid all appearance.

                                    “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • LuFins DadL Offline
                                      LuFins DadL Offline
                                      LuFins Dad
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #89

                                      Just listened to Shapiro break it down. It’s frigging bad.

                                      But yeah, this goes back to Comey deciding not to punish HRC. Sorry, but in the interest of just even the image of legitimacy, you have to prosecute these incidents. All of them.

                                      The Brad

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • George KG Offline
                                        George KG Offline
                                        George K
                                        wrote on last edited by George K
                                        #90

                                        It's horrible. But, as you suggest, is it more horrible than having your private server accessed by "foreign actors?" Is it more horrible than having classified documents found on the laptop of your aide's estranged husband's laptop?

                                        I don't know.

                                        The only thing more outrageous than Trump's behavior is the fact that Department of "Justice" didn't pursue the other transgressions. When Comey didn't, he, in one press conference, destroyed all the credibility of the DOJ. The lack of prosecution of others, McCabe, et al, completed the Jenga collapse.

                                        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • George KG Offline
                                          George KG Offline
                                          George K
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #91

                                          John Yoo:

                                          https://whatthehellisgoingon.substack.com/p/wth-the-trump-indictment

                                          What about the case on the merits?

                                          If it was anyone else other that a former President, I would be telling the defendant to go get a good plea bargain while you can. Usually, people who are prosecuted for this kind of crime, taking classified information, have a lot less evidence in the indictment. I mean, you’ve got pictures of the documents themselves in unsecured facilities. You’ve got apparently tape recordings of the defendant talking about how he’s got the documents and how he knows they’re still classified. This is the most damaging of evidence in a way because you don’t need to rely on witnesses’ valuable memory, you don’t have to worry about the witness changing stories on the stand. You’ve got physical photographic proof or recorded proof of Trump himself talking about how he shouldn’t have these documents, how he knows that they’re classified, and he’s violating the law.

                                          How do you respond to Trump’s complaint that neither Hillary Clinton nor any others have been prosecuted for the same or similar crimes?

                                          JY: Trump raises a good point. It just doesn't get you anywhere in the courtroom. You can't show up in the courtroom and say, "I'm innocent because you didn't charge that other person over there." The prosecution is about whether Donald Trump is guilty. So this claim of selective prosecution, it never works, but it's a good argument to make in the political sphere. I mean, you can say that all you want in the political sphere. Maybe it gets you charged or maybe it's why his support seems to go up every time he's gotten indicted, which is why he's looks like he's made sure he is going to get indicted two or three more times before their caucuses.

                                          Much more at the link about comparing Biden, whether it's appropriate to indict Trump, and "can a felon be president?", etc.

                                          "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                          The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

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