Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science
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There is some evidence that mask-wearing prevents transmission. That's a good thing.
There is also evidence that vaccination prevents measles. That's another good thing.
Neither one infringes on your "freedom." Both of them involve some minor inconvenience. If the mask-wearing is, ultimately, proven to not being effective, what's the loss, other than someone not seeing your face and some $$?
Your right to not vaccinate your kids stops exactly where my kids' right to not get the measles begins. I'd like to hear a reasonable argument how this is any different, other than the mask "science" is, for now, speculative.
At which point does the right of the inconvenienced surpass the right of those not to be infected? I'm going to stand to the left of that line and mask-up for now. As Phibes has said, it's a minor inconvenience and has potentially significant benefits. Why risk?
wrote on 13 Jul 2020, 01:10 last edited by@George-K said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
There is some evidence that mask-wearing prevents transmission. That's a good thing.
There is also evidence that vaccination prevents measles. That's another good thing.
Neither one infringes on your "freedom." Both of them involve some minor inconvenience. If the mask-wearing is, ultimately, proven to not being effective, what's the loss, other than someone not seeing your face and some $$?
Your right to not vaccinate your kids stops exactly where my kids' right to not get the measles begins. I'd like to hear a reasonable argument how this is any different, other than the mask "science" is, for now, speculative.
At which point does the right of the inconvenienced surpass the right of those not to be infected? I'm going to stand to the left of that line and mask-up for now. As Phibes has said, it's a minor inconvenience and has potentially significant benefits. Why risk?
Excellent points.
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I visited Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan, years before COVID-19. Even then it was quite common to see people there wore masks. The people there have somehow developed the social norm of wearing masks whenever they were sick with the common flu. I don’t think there was a government mandate for them to wear mask, but there was enough public health education and awareness that the people there generally accept that wearing a mask when one is sick with an illness that can infect others through coughs and sneezes is the right thing to do. This seems rather logical and need not be politicized as we have done here.
wrote on 13 Jul 2020, 01:20 last edited by@Axtremus said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
I visited Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan, years before COVID-19. Even then it was quite common to see people there wore masks. The people there have somehow developed the social norm of wearing masks whenever they were sick with the common flu. I don’t think there was a government mandate for them to wear mask, but there was enough public health education and awareness that the people there generally accept that wearing a mask when one is sick with an illness that can infect others through coughs and sneezes is the right thing to do. This seems rather logical and need not be politicized as we have done here.
Hey Ax and Taiwan Girl.
I've seen it in airports over the years, occasionally an Asian person wearing a mask. Frankly, I always thought it was from not wanting to be infected by other travelers, not just protecting others' from their illness.Why do you think that is? Why would Asian cultures think nothing of wearing a mask, whereas here it's like something so weird and unusual that it becomes an argument?
I wonder if in Japan, as an example, if someone was out and about with a cold, if it would result in someone mentioning to them that they should be wearing a mask?
I was next to an Asian person on a flight. He was very sick. I thought he'd keel over and die in my lap. I mean, REALLY sick. I couldn't change seats because the flight was completely full. He was so sick I believed he was only semi-conscious (and could not speak English).
I never caught anything, surprisingly. Other times, it's been almost guaranteed that a week after a flight, I'd come down with a cold.Oh yeah, regarding the above. I wonder if that cultural "saving face" somehow goes with Asian cultures being more receptive to wearing a mask, or is it the collective spirit in the culture?
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wrote on 13 Jul 2020, 02:01 last edited by
@George-K Wise words as usual!
@Rainman Wearing a mask is both to protect yourself but even more to protect others. As long as I have been alive, it has been very common to wear a mask whenever you feel sick.
i think it is because there is much more a "us" feeling rather than an "I" feeling. If definitely relates to culture, and people will think of how their actions will effect others around them.
In a way, it is putting the "good of society" above the"good of the individual"
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In the population that frets about their freedom being abridged by being forced to wear a mask, in how many other ways do they break rebellious in their lives? In how much else in their lives do they storm and rage? As you say, wearing the mask is a minor thing; making a noise about it is a cheap way to stomp around and beat chest and look fierce. What about, say, speed limits? How about mouthing off at the boss? Telling the IRS to go jump during an audit? Telling the mother-in-law that her jello salads suck? (Which they totally do, I don't care who you are.)
That's a different deal, amirite?
Maybe spurning the mask acts as a relief valve.
wrote on 13 Jul 2020, 02:19 last edited by@Catseye3 said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
That's a different deal, amirite?
All those laws came about through the careful consideration of people we elected to legislate.
The mask requirement/recommendation came about as part of an emergency order based on emerging science. It has a different feel. And before the science had a chance to gel it became polarized.
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Pick the number of acceptable deaths.
Above the number for your county, city or state and you wear the mask.
Below the number, you don't.
Mix in GDP if that makes sense.
If the number of acceptable deaths is zero, then we will all wear masks forever. At the moment I'm not for or against that, I'm just saying that we might as well face the facts.
I have a couple masks and wear one when it is recommended.
And have we overreacted? That depends on the number of acceptable deaths.
wrote on 13 Jul 2020, 02:22 last edited by Doctor Phibes@Copper said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
Pick the number of acceptable deaths.
Above the number for your county, city or state and you wear the mask.
Below the number, you don't.
Mix in GDP if that makes sense.
If the number of acceptable deaths is zero, then we will all wear masks forever. At the moment I'm not for or against that, I'm just saying that we might as well face the facts.
I have a couple masks and wear one when it is recommended.
And have we overreacted? That depends on the number of acceptable deaths.
The thing is, we can't accurately control the number of deaths. We can't say 'OK, we're going to have 27,500 deaths and still make 87% of our normal GDP'. That isn't how this works. We're dancing with chaos, and trying to avoid carnage.
All we can do is make every reasonable effort to minimise the damage done, both on a human and a financial basis.
Wearing a mask where social distancing isn't possible isn't such a big deal.
This isn't something we can accurately control. We just have to do the best we can.
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@Axtremus said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
I visited Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan, years before COVID-19. Even then it was quite common to see people there wore masks. The people there have somehow developed the social norm of wearing masks whenever they were sick with the common flu. I don’t think there was a government mandate for them to wear mask, but there was enough public health education and awareness that the people there generally accept that wearing a mask when one is sick with an illness that can infect others through coughs and sneezes is the right thing to do. This seems rather logical and need not be politicized as we have done here.
Hey Ax and Taiwan Girl.
I've seen it in airports over the years, occasionally an Asian person wearing a mask. Frankly, I always thought it was from not wanting to be infected by other travelers, not just protecting others' from their illness.Why do you think that is? Why would Asian cultures think nothing of wearing a mask, whereas here it's like something so weird and unusual that it becomes an argument?
I wonder if in Japan, as an example, if someone was out and about with a cold, if it would result in someone mentioning to them that they should be wearing a mask?
I was next to an Asian person on a flight. He was very sick. I thought he'd keel over and die in my lap. I mean, REALLY sick. I couldn't change seats because the flight was completely full. He was so sick I believed he was only semi-conscious (and could not speak English).
I never caught anything, surprisingly. Other times, it's been almost guaranteed that a week after a flight, I'd come down with a cold.Oh yeah, regarding the above. I wonder if that cultural "saving face" somehow goes with Asian cultures being more receptive to wearing a mask, or is it the collective spirit in the culture?
wrote on 13 Jul 2020, 04:39 last edited by@Rainman said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
@Axtremus said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
I visited Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan, years before COVID-19. Even then it was quite common to see people there wore masks. ...
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I've seen it in airports over the years, occasionally an Asian person wearing a mask.
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Oh yeah, regarding the above. I wonder if that cultural "saving face" somehow goes with Asian cultures being more receptive to wearing a mask, or is it the collective spirit in the culture?Very specifically, I talked only about Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. Not “Asia” or “Asian” in general. Pre-COVID-19, I don’t get the impression that mainland Chinese wear masks as much as, say the Hong Kong Chinese, and even the Hong Kong Chinese do not wear masks as much as, say, the Taiwanese. They are all “Chinese,” yet the regional differences are significant. I also did not see mask wearing much in Indochina and South East Asia pre-COVID-19. I will let xenon comment on mask wearing in South Asia if he wishes; I think he’s more familiar with that region.
As for the Asians one sees in various airports, who knows where they come from. As far as I can tell, an Asian from North America is just as unlikely to wear a mask as just about any ethnic group from North America.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
I also think it's very sad that wearing a mask has become politicised to the extent that it has.
In another time I'm sure it would seem like plain common sense, but apparently not in this time.
We're Americans. No matter how civilized we become, the national ethos is you're-not-gonna-tell-me-what-to-do-by-God rebels.
wrote on 13 Jul 2020, 13:22 last edited by Doctor Phibes@Jolly said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
I also think it's very sad that wearing a mask has become politicised to the extent that it has.
In another time I'm sure it would seem like plain common sense, but apparently not in this time.
We're Americans. No matter how civilized we become, the national ethos is you're-not-gonna-tell-me-what-to-do-by-God rebels.
You're teenagers, in other words.
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wrote on 13 Jul 2020, 18:15 last edited by
The other thing to remember is it's not just deaths. It appears that lots of survivors are going to have long term health issues as a result of Covid.
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I visited Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan, years before COVID-19. Even then it was quite common to see people there wore masks. The people there have somehow developed the social norm of wearing masks whenever they were sick with the common flu. I don’t think there was a government mandate for them to wear mask, but there was enough public health education and awareness that the people there generally accept that wearing a mask when one is sick with an illness that can infect others through coughs and sneezes is the right thing to do. This seems rather logical and need not be politicized as we have done here.
wrote on 13 Jul 2020, 23:43 last edited by@Axtremus said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
I visited Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan, years before COVID-19. Even then it was quite common to see people there wore masks. The people there have somehow developed the social norm of wearing masks whenever they were sick with the common flu. I don’t think there was a government mandate for them to wear mask, but there was enough public health education and awareness that the people there generally accept that wearing a mask when one is sick with an illness that can infect others through coughs and sneezes is the right thing to do. This seems rather logical and need not be politicized as we have done here.
It’s Ax and Mik agree day again. I wonder if it’s the same day each year or like a floating holiday
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wrote on 14 Jul 2020, 02:11 last edited by
@Axtremus
"Very specifically, I talked only about Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. Not “Asia” or “Asian” in general."Hey Ax 'ol buddy. Serious question from me.
Is it politically incorrect, or perhaps offensive, for me to use the word "Asian" without being more specific? It seemed maybe you were a bit put off by the way I stated my question? No offense meant by me if so. -
@Axtremus
"Very specifically, I talked only about Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. Not “Asia” or “Asian” in general."Hey Ax 'ol buddy. Serious question from me.
Is it politically incorrect, or perhaps offensive, for me to use the word "Asian" without being more specific? It seemed maybe you were a bit put off by the way I stated my question? No offense meant by me if so.wrote on 14 Jul 2020, 10:57 last edited by@Rainman said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
@Axtremus
"Very specifically, I talked only about Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. Not “Asia” or “Asian” in general."Hey Ax 'ol buddy. Serious question from me.
Is it politically incorrect, or perhaps offensive, for me to use the word "Asian" without being more specific? It seemed maybe you were a bit put off by the way I stated my question? No offense meant by me if so.Not “politically incorrect” and not “offensive,” just intellectually sloppy in this case. I described certain regional norm, and you generalized it well beyond the specific regions where the described norm is evident. My follow up post clarified that your generalization has no basis in fact.
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wrote on 14 Jul 2020, 11:36 last edited by
Yesterday, Mrs. George asked me when it became improper to say "Oriental." When and why was that term replaced by "Asian?" Is "Oriental" not accurate, or is it offensive in some way?
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wrote on 14 Jul 2020, 11:57 last edited by
As a matter of common usage, it seems to me “oriental” typically refers to East Asian; I don’t think I have ever heard the word used to refer to, say, a person from the India subcontinent or from the part of Russia that’s technically in north Asia. :man-shrugging:
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As a matter of common usage, it seems to me “oriental” typically refers to East Asian; I don’t think I have ever heard the word used to refer to, say, a person from the India subcontinent or from the part of Russia that’s technically in north Asia. :man-shrugging:
wrote on 14 Jul 2020, 12:04 last edited by@Axtremus said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
As a matter of common usage, it seems to me “oriental” typically refers to East Asian; I don’t think I have ever heard the word used to refer to, say, a person from the India subcontinent or from the part of Russia that’s technically in north Asia. :man-shrugging:
That makes sense. So, in today's parlance, can I say "Asian" in reference to a person from India instead of "Indian?" Would that be a faux-pas? I believe in Britain "Asian" commonly refers to people from Pakistan, etc. It's all so confusing.
I'm afraid of offending someone, you know.
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@Axtremus said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
As a matter of common usage, it seems to me “oriental” typically refers to East Asian; I don’t think I have ever heard the word used to refer to, say, a person from the India subcontinent or from the part of Russia that’s technically in north Asia. :man-shrugging:
That makes sense. So, in today's parlance, can I say "Asian" in reference to a person from India instead of "Indian?" Would that be a faux-pas? I believe in Britain "Asian" commonly refers to people from Pakistan, etc. It's all so confusing.
I'm afraid of offending someone, you know.
wrote on 14 Jul 2020, 12:07 last edited by@George-K said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
I'm afraid of offending someone, you know.
I think that ship has sailed, my friend.
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@Axtremus said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
As a matter of common usage, it seems to me “oriental” typically refers to East Asian; I don’t think I have ever heard the word used to refer to, say, a person from the India subcontinent or from the part of Russia that’s technically in north Asia. :man-shrugging:
That makes sense. So, in today's parlance, can I say "Asian" in reference to a person from India instead of "Indian?" Would that be a faux-pas? I believe in Britain "Asian" commonly refers to people from Pakistan, etc. It's all so confusing.
I'm afraid of offending someone, you know.
wrote on 14 Jul 2020, 12:21 last edited by@George-K said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
@Axtremus said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
As a matter of common usage, it seems to me “oriental” typically refers to East Asian; I don’t think I have ever heard the word used to refer to, say, a person from the India subcontinent or from the part of Russia that’s technically in north Asia. :man-shrugging:
That makes sense. So, in today's parlance, can I say "Asian" in reference to a person from India instead of "Indian?" Would that be a faux-pas? I believe in Britain "Asian" commonly refers to people from Pakistan, etc. It's all so confusing.
I'm afraid of offending someone, you know.
It’s like saying “baby grand” in piano forum, different people have different opinions on what that term can mean. I try to be specific where possible (e.g., “6 ft. grand” or “185cm grand” as opposed to “baby grand”). So too with people’s ethnicity, nationality, or geographic origins (e.g., “a Singaporean” as opposed to “an Asian”).
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@Axtremus said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
As a matter of common usage, it seems to me “oriental” typically refers to East Asian; I don’t think I have ever heard the word used to refer to, say, a person from the India subcontinent or from the part of Russia that’s technically in north Asia. :man-shrugging:
That makes sense. So, in today's parlance, can I say "Asian" in reference to a person from India instead of "Indian?" Would that be a faux-pas? I believe in Britain "Asian" commonly refers to people from Pakistan, etc. It's all so confusing.
I'm afraid of offending someone, you know.
wrote on 14 Jul 2020, 12:43 last edited by Doctor Phibes@George-K said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
@Axtremus said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
As a matter of common usage, it seems to me “oriental” typically refers to East Asian; I don’t think I have ever heard the word used to refer to, say, a person from the India subcontinent or from the part of Russia that’s technically in north Asia. :man-shrugging:
That makes sense. So, in today's parlance, can I say "Asian" in reference to a person from India instead of "Indian?" Would that be a faux-pas? I believe in Britain "Asian" commonly refers to people from Pakistan, etc. It's all so confusing.
I'm afraid of offending someone, you know.
In the UK, Asian typically means either India or Pakistan - there are actually more people of Indian origin than of Pakistani in the UK, but it can mean anybody from the Indian subcontinent and surrounding area, e.g. Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan...
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Yesterday, Mrs. George asked me when it became improper to say "Oriental." When and why was that term replaced by "Asian?" Is "Oriental" not accurate, or is it offensive in some way?
wrote on 14 Jul 2020, 15:03 last edited by@George-K said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
Yesterday, Mrs. George asked me when it became improper to say "Oriental." When and why was that term replaced by "Asian?" Is "Oriental" not accurate, or is it offensive in some way?
I have never really heard that term before. But I do remember visiting the Oriental Institute at the University of Chicago. If I remember, it is mainly about Egyptian artifacts, etc.
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Yesterday, Mrs. George asked me when it became improper to say "Oriental." When and why was that term replaced by "Asian?" Is "Oriental" not accurate, or is it offensive in some way?
wrote on 14 Jul 2020, 15:28 last edited by Copper@George-K said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:
Yesterday, Mrs. George asked me when it became improper to say "Oriental." When and why was that term replaced by "Asian?" Is "Oriental" not accurate, or is it offensive in some way?
It is accurate.
It is in no way offensive.
But it was outlawed for no reason I can figure out maybe 15 years ago.
It was replaced with Asian, which is obviously inaccurate. Asia goes all the way over to Turkey but Asian is used to describe those from Eastern Asia.
I say bring back Oriental. I don't think there was ever any disrespect associated with it.