Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science

[Doctor Phibes]

@Larry said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:

@Doctor-Phibes said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:

If you want to wear a mask at all times, feel free to do so.

What this argument about is certain people here and elsewhere have consistently downplayed the risks of this pandemic, and consistently argued that we should do nothing out of the ordinary, against pretty much all expert advice, and all evidence to the contrary. As the death toll has increased, the only thing that's changed has been the excuses used to justify doing nothing.

And I for one am fucking sick of it. I have zero interest in trying to nail jello to a wall.

But has the death toll increased? From what I've heard, case numbers are increasing, but deaths are decreasing.

The death rate may have reduced, however I fear that won't last. I'd be more than happy to be proved wrong, but I sure don't want to bet on it.

[Axtremus]

I visited Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan, years before COVID-19. Even then it was quite common to see people there wore masks. The people there have somehow developed the social norm of wearing masks whenever they were sick with the common flu. I don’t think there was a government mandate for them to wear mask, but there was enough public health education and awareness that the people there generally accept that wearing a mask when one is sick with an illness that can infect others through coughs and sneezes is the right thing to do. This seems rather logical and need not be politicized as we have done here.

[Aqua Letifer]

@Jolly said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:

@Doctor-Phibes said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:

If you want to wear a mask at all times, feel free to do so.

What this argument about is certain people here and elsewhere have consistently downplayed the risks of this pandemic, and consistently argued that we should do nothing out of the ordinary, against pretty much all expert advice, and all evidence to the contrary. As the death toll has increased, the only thing that's changed has been the excuses used to justify doing nothing.

And I for one am fucking sick of it. I have zero interest in trying to nail jello to a wall.

You need to live in my neck of the woods. The folks here are positively police state versus what I see and hear from the majority of people around here...

Absolutely not the case here. I'm not "safety at any cost." I said it before: for 4th of July weekend, there was a sea of people out and about and after making a few passes in my car, I counted 12 motherfuckers wearing masks out of thousands. That's it. I'm not advocating "safety at any cost," I'm saying it's disgusting how many people in this and other areas are doing absolutely, positively nothing apparent to keep themselves and others safe.

[Catseye3]

Same here, Aqua. Smaller scale -- in my local mom n' pop store. Very few wearing masks, but there seemed to be a lot of respect for the six-foot distancing.

One thing I've noticed. I've visited this store for years, know the staff and etc to nod to. But wearing the mask, I felt a kind of shunning. Not actual shunning, but like I'd turned into a stranger that they didn't particularly want to get to know.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Jolly said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:

@Doctor-Phibes said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:

If you want to wear a mask at all times, feel free to do so.

What this argument about is certain people here and elsewhere have consistently downplayed the risks of this pandemic, and consistently argued that we should do nothing out of the ordinary, against pretty much all expert advice, and all evidence to the contrary. As the death toll has increased, the only thing that's changed has been the excuses used to justify doing nothing.

And I for one am fucking sick of it. I have zero interest in trying to nail jello to a wall.

You need to live in my neck of the woods. The folks here are positively police state versus what I see and hear from the majority of people around here...

The thing is, I'm not at all police-state about it all. I'm happy for people to follow social distancing guidelines and not wear a mask if they can maintain that. MA has done a pretty good job of reducing the infection rate, although it's creeping.

I also don't believe that we should put our lives on hold, but believe that we should be capable of demonstrating some level of self-restraint. The idea that it should be business-as-usual is unsustainable.

[Jolly]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:

@Jolly said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:

@Doctor-Phibes said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:

If you want to wear a mask at all times, feel free to do so.

What this argument about is certain people here and elsewhere have consistently downplayed the risks of this pandemic, and consistently argued that we should do nothing out of the ordinary, against pretty much all expert advice, and all evidence to the contrary. As the death toll has increased, the only thing that's changed has been the excuses used to justify doing nothing.

And I for one am fucking sick of it. I have zero interest in trying to nail jello to a wall.

You need to live in my neck of the woods. The folks here are positively police state versus what I see and hear from the majority of people around here...

Absolutely not the case here. I'm not "safety at any cost." I said it before: for 4th of July weekend, there was a sea of people out and about and after making a few passes in my car, I counted 12 motherfuckers wearing masks out of thousands. That's it. I'm not advocating "safety at any cost," I'm saying it's disgusting how many people in this and other areas are doing absolutely, positively nothing apparent to keep themselves and others safe.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. Many people around here equate wearing a mask with being in a police state. I'm positively a flaming liberal on the issue.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Horace said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:

@Doctor-Phibes said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:

If you want to wear a mask at all times, feel free to do so.

What this argument about is certain people here and elsewhere have consistently downplayed the risks of this pandemic, and consistently argued that we should do nothing out of the ordinary, against pretty much all expert advice, and all evidence to the contrary. As the death toll has increased, the only thing that's changed has been the excuses used to justify doing nothing.

And I for one am fucking sick of it. I have zero interest in trying to nail jello to a wall.

That may not be an accurate portrayal of what people here have been "consistently" posting.

There should be room in the discussion for those who raise a few questions to the virtuous noises about saving lives at any cost. But I don't really think you want to have a discussion that allows for that room.

See my other reply. I don't believe in saving lives at any cost, it's not feasible. But arguing that masks are pointless or unnecessary is not that. All I would hope is that people would be able to exercise reasonable caution, which is what wearing a mask in a store is doing. Going to a massive public beach party seems like reckless stupidity. Going on vacation and maintaining social distancing doesn't seem unreasonable.

[Doctor Phibes]

I also think it's very sad that wearing a mask has become politicised to the extent that it has.

In another time I'm sure it would seem like plain common sense, but apparently not in this time.

[Catseye3]

@Doctor-Phibes Agreed 1000%. It's beyond silly to politicize something like this, a virus that shows no political preference in its victims!

Maybe we should start a thread titled "Things That Can't Be Politicized", see how many such topics are left. (Left = remaining.) I wonder how many we could come up with.

[Jolly]

@Doctor-Phibes said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:

I also think it's very sad that wearing a mask has become politicised to the extent that it has.

In another time I'm sure it would seem like plain common sense, but apparently not in this time.

We're Americans. No matter how civilized we become, the national ethos is you're-not-gonna-tell-me-what-to-do-by-God rebels.

[George K]

There is some evidence that mask-wearing prevents transmission. That's a good thing.

There is also evidence that vaccination prevents measles. That's another good thing.

Neither one infringes on your "freedom." Both of them involve some minor inconvenience. If the mask-wearing is, ultimately, proven to not being effective, what's the loss, other than someone not seeing your face and some $$?

Your right to not vaccinate your kids stops exactly where my kids' right to not get the measles begins. I'd like to hear a reasonable argument how this is any different, other than the mask "science" is, for now, speculative.

At which point does the right of the inconvenienced surpass the right of those not to be infected? I'm going to stand to the left of that line and mask-up for now. As Phibes has said, it's a minor inconvenience and has potentially significant benefits. Why risk?

[Copper]

The frustrating thing is that Governor's seem to make decisions based on some sort of emotional feeling about how things are going.

The goal to "flatten the curve" was almost scientific, not exactly, but at least going in that direction.

Since the curve was flattened it seems to me that decisions have been based on varying degrees of hysteria.

[Copper]

Pick the number of acceptable deaths.

Above the number for your county, city or state and you wear the mask.

Below the number, you don't.

Mix in GDP if that makes sense.

If the number of acceptable deaths is zero, then we will all wear masks forever. At the moment I'm not for or against that, I'm just saying that we might as well face the facts.

I have a couple masks and wear one when it is recommended.

And have we overreacted? That depends on the number of acceptable deaths.

[Catseye3]

In the population that frets about their freedom being abridged by being forced to wear a mask, in how many other ways do they break rebellious in their lives? In how much else in their lives do they storm and rage? As you say, wearing the mask is a minor thing; making a noise about it is a cheap way to stomp around and beat chest and look fierce. What about, say, speed limits? How about mouthing off at the boss? Telling the IRS to go jump during an audit? Telling the mother-in-law that her jello salads suck? (Which they totally do, I don't care who you are.)

That's a different deal, amirite?

Maybe spurning the mask acts as a relief valve.

[Larry]

@George-K said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:

There is some evidence that mask-wearing prevents transmission. That's a good thing.

There is also evidence that vaccination prevents measles. That's another good thing.

Neither one infringes on your "freedom." Both of them involve some minor inconvenience. If the mask-wearing is, ultimately, proven to not being effective, what's the loss, other than someone not seeing your face and some $$?

Your right to not vaccinate your kids stops exactly where my kids' right to not get the measles begins. I'd like to hear a reasonable argument how this is any different, other than the mask "science" is, for now, speculative.

At which point does the right of the inconvenienced surpass the right of those not to be infected? I'm going to stand to the left of that line and mask-up for now. As Phibes has said, it's a minor inconvenience and has potentially significant benefits. Why risk?

Excellent points.

[Rainman]

@Axtremus said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:

I visited Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan, years before COVID-19. Even then it was quite common to see people there wore masks. The people there have somehow developed the social norm of wearing masks whenever they were sick with the common flu. I don’t think there was a government mandate for them to wear mask, but there was enough public health education and awareness that the people there generally accept that wearing a mask when one is sick with an illness that can infect others through coughs and sneezes is the right thing to do. This seems rather logical and need not be politicized as we have done here.

Hey Ax and Taiwan Girl.
I've seen it in airports over the years, occasionally an Asian person wearing a mask. Frankly, I always thought it was from not wanting to be infected by other travelers, not just protecting others' from their illness.

Why do you think that is? Why would Asian cultures think nothing of wearing a mask, whereas here it's like something so weird and unusual that it becomes an argument?

I wonder if in Japan, as an example, if someone was out and about with a cold, if it would result in someone mentioning to them that they should be wearing a mask?

I was next to an Asian person on a flight. He was very sick. I thought he'd keel over and die in my lap. I mean, REALLY sick. I couldn't change seats because the flight was completely full. He was so sick I believed he was only semi-conscious (and could not speak English).
I never caught anything, surprisingly. Other times, it's been almost guaranteed that a week after a flight, I'd come down with a cold.

Oh yeah, regarding the above. I wonder if that cultural "saving face" somehow goes with Asian cultures being more receptive to wearing a mask, or is it the collective spirit in the culture?

[taiwan_girl]

@George-K Wise words as usual!

@Rainman Wearing a mask is both to protect yourself but even more to protect others. As long as I have been alive, it has been very common to wear a mask whenever you feel sick.

i think it is because there is much more a "us" feeling rather than an "I" feeling. If definitely relates to culture, and people will think of how their actions will effect others around them.

In a way, it is putting the "good of society" above the"good of the individual"

[Copper]

@Catseye3 said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:

That's a different deal, amirite?

All those laws came about through the careful consideration of people we elected to legislate.

The mask requirement/recommendation came about as part of an emergency order based on emerging science. It has a different feel. And before the science had a chance to gel it became polarized.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Copper said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:

Pick the number of acceptable deaths.

Above the number for your county, city or state and you wear the mask.

Below the number, you don't.

Mix in GDP if that makes sense.

If the number of acceptable deaths is zero, then we will all wear masks forever. At the moment I'm not for or against that, I'm just saying that we might as well face the facts.

I have a couple masks and wear one when it is recommended.

And have we overreacted? That depends on the number of acceptable deaths.

The thing is, we can't accurately control the number of deaths. We can't say 'OK, we're going to have 27,500 deaths and still make 87% of our normal GDP'. That isn't how this works. We're dancing with chaos, and trying to avoid carnage.

All we can do is make every reasonable effort to minimise the damage done, both on a human and a financial basis.

Wearing a mask where social distancing isn't possible isn't such a big deal.

This isn't something we can accurately control. We just have to do the best we can.

[Axtremus]

@Rainman said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:

@Axtremus said in Tucker: Masks and social distancing have no basis in science:

I visited Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan, years before COVID-19. Even then it was quite common to see people there wore masks. ...

...
I've seen it in airports over the years, occasionally an Asian person wearing a mask.
...
Oh yeah, regarding the above. I wonder if that cultural "saving face" somehow goes with Asian cultures being more receptive to wearing a mask, or is it the collective spirit in the culture?

Very specifically, I talked only about Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. Not “Asia” or “Asian” in general. Pre-COVID-19, I don’t get the impression that mainland Chinese wear masks as much as, say the Hong Kong Chinese, and even the Hong Kong Chinese do not wear masks as much as, say, the Taiwanese. They are all “Chinese,” yet the regional differences are significant. I also did not see mask wearing much in Indochina and South East Asia pre-COVID-19. I will let xenon comment on mask wearing in South Asia if he wishes; I think he’s more familiar with that region.

As for the Asians one sees in various airports, who knows where they come from. As far as I can tell, an Asian from North America is just as unlikely to wear a mask as just about any ethnic group from North America.