Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday
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@LuFins-Dad said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
Remember that Pandora’s box I mentioned?
That “box” is merely an imaginary construct in your mind. It does not exist in reality. Grand jury thinks someone has likely broken the law, that someone is indicted. There has never been, nor should there ever be, any “box” that exempts one from such an indictment just because one has worked a certain job, former President included.
@Axtremus said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
@LuFins-Dad said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
Remember that Pandora’s box I mentioned?
That “box” is merely an imaginary construct in your mind. It does not exist in reality. Grand jury thinks someone has likely broken the law, that someone is indicted. There has never been, nor should there ever be, any “box” that exempts one from such an indictment just because one has worked a certain job, former President included.
Yesterday afternoon must have been… very gratifying for you. Remember to clean the keyboard as well…
So, whose side would I rather fall on this issue?
Axtremus’ or Jonathan Turley’s?
https://jonathanturley.org/2023/03/31/the-trump-indictment-making-history-in-the-worst-possible-way/
Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg has finally made history. He has indicted former President Donald Trump as part of an investigation, possibly for hush money payments. We are all waiting to see the text of the indictment to confirm the basis for this unprecedented act. But history in this case — and in this country — is not on Bragg’s side.
The only crime that has been discussed in this case is an unprecedented attempt to revive a misdemeanor for falsifying business documents that expired years ago. If that is still the basis of Thursday’s indictment, Bragg could not have raised a weaker basis to prosecute a former president. If reports are accurate, he may attempt to “bootstrap” the misdemeanor into a felony (and longer statute of limitations) by alleging an effort to evade federal election charges.
While Trump will be the first former president indicted, he will not be the last if that is the standard for prosecution.
It is still hard to believe that Bragg would primarily proceed on such a basis. There have been no other crimes discussed over months, but we will have to wait to read the indictment to confirm the grounds.
What we do know is the checkered history leading to this moment.
The Justice Department itself declined to prosecute the federal election claim against Trump. There was ample reason to decline.
The Justice Department went down this road before and it did not go well. They tried to prosecute former Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards on stronger grounds (which I also criticized) and failed. In that case, campaign officials and donors were directly involved in covering up an affair that produced a child.
At the time, Edwards’ wife was suffering from cancer. The prosecution still collapsed. The reason is that you need to show the sole purpose for paying hush money in such a scandal. For any married man, let alone a celebrity, there are various reasons to want to bury a sexual scandal.
For Trump, there was an upcoming election but he was also a married man allegedly involved in an affair with a porn star. He was also a television celebrity who is subject to the standard “morals clause” that’s triggered by criminal conduct or conduct that brings “public disrepute, scandal, or embarrassment.” These clauses are written broadly to protect the news organizations and their “brand.”
Various presidents from Warren Harding to Bill Clinton have been involved in efforts to hush up affairs. They also had different reasons for burying such scandals, including politics. However, scandals are messy matters with a complex set of motivations. Showing that Trump only acted with the future election in mind — rather than his current marriage or television contracts — is implausible. That was likely the same calculus made by the Justice Department.
That is also why the use of the “bootstrapping” theory as the primary charge would be an indictment of the prosecution and its own conduct. The office has already been tarnished by the conduct of the prosecutors who pushed this theory.
When Bragg initially balked at this theory and stopped the investigation, two prosecutors, Carey R. Dunne and Mark F. Pomerantz,b resigned from the Manhattan DA’s office. Pomerantz then did something that some of us view as a highly unprofessional and improper act. He published a book on the case against Trump — a person who was still under investigation and not charged, let alone convicted, of any crime.
It worked. Bragg ran on his pledge to bag Trump and Pomerantz ramped up the political base to demand an indictment for a crime. It really did not matter what that crime might be.
While other crimes have not been discussed in leaks or coverage for months, it is always possible that Bragg charged Trump on something other than the state/federal hybrid issue in his indictment. There could be other business or tax record charges linked to banks or taxes. Ironically, the bank and tax fraud issues were also a focus of the Justice Department, which again did not charge on those theories. Moreover, Bragg could face the same statute of limitation concerns on some of the issues previously investigated by the Justice Department.
Finally, Bragg could stack multiple falsification claims to ramp up the indictment. There are reports of 34 counts of business record falsification. But multiplying a flawed theory 34 times does not make it 34 times stronger. Serial repetition is no substitute for viable criminal charges.
Bragg could have something more than the anemic bootstrapping theory — and it would be more defensible. Conversely, if Bragg moves primarily on that theory, the Democrats are inviting a race to the bottom in political prosecutions. That is something that we have been able to largely avoid in this country.
Bragg had a choice to make. He cannot be the defender of the rule of law if he is using the legal process for political purposes. That is what would be involved in a formal accusation based largely on the bootstrap theory. The underlying misdemeanor could pale in comparison to the means being used to prosecute it.
We have already watched the unseemly display of Bragg’s former lead prosecutor in publishing a book and publicly calling for charges during an ongoing investigation. Proceeding solely on the bootstrap theory would be a singularly ignoble moment for the Manhattan District Attorney.
What is clear is that whatever comes out of that gate next week, it will not just be Trump who will face the judgment of history.
Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro professor of public interest law at George Washington University and a practicing criminal defense attorney.
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Ax, you are blithely disregarding the seven YEARS the Democrats have not just tried, but strived with all their might to find something, anything on Trump. This is really no different and I suspect it will end up in acquittal. Then they'll try something else and something else.
And the problem is that if they will go this far to destroy him, they'll do it to you too if you get in their way. Or anyone else.
I have said I will not vote for Trump in 2024. This could change that. No matter what, he has to be better than these evil bastards.
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Here’s the thing… Even though it is a BS charge, it WILL be a distraction to Trump and his legal team while also facing charges in Georgia and possibly federal charges, all while trying to run a campaign?
It’s ridiculous, but that doesn’t mean that it will be ineffective.
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Ax is overjoyed they are prosecuting Trump for being a man.
Yep, if any of us real men had fallen off the wagon and had an affair or even a mistress on the side, we would definitely try to keep it quiet.
Ax, unlike Trump, would have to write a check to his hand and swear off Cheetos.
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I imagine yesterday was a very good day for Kleenex sales. Trumpers needed them to wipe away tears of frustration and anger, and Ax and his friends needed it for other reasons…
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I stopped tracking Trump's
crimesshenanigans some years ago. I'd seen enough to justify my prediction during his campaign -- that I posted right here, in fact -- that if he gets elected, he will either be forced to resign or be arrested for something. At this point, events have proceeded far enough along that my prediction is justified.It's good to be right.
I've been briefly tempted to climb back aboard and follow all this Bragg snarl, but have managed to resist.
In any situation, there exists a set of facts. They may not be readily apparent, but they're there somewhere. In this age of Internet and social, the obfuscation on Trump is at its uttermost. It is no longer possible to discover the facts, no. The best you can do is join the realm of the Right Clusterfuck or the Left Clusterfuck, and pretend to know the real truth -- or you can own the truth that the facts are buried too deep in a Mariana Trench of confusion, half-assery and short-temperedness to be of any use, but that give you bellowing rights on the barstool.
This is especially tempting a course if you don't actually give a fuck about the country but only about the party, and if you ever were of the belief that your party was the best for the country, that tail has long since outgrown the dog.
Oh, and about Trump? Dig it: It doesn't matter what happens with the Bragg thing. If things don't proceed organically, Trump will find a way to embroil himself in another one of his many transgressions -- oops, I mean dastardly false accusations.
Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka
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@89th said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
Can anyone give me an objective (!) TLDR version of why Trump is being arrested?
From Forbes: "Bragg’s investigation centered around a $130,000 alleged hush money payment former Trump fixer Michael Cohen paid porn star Stormy Daniels in the final days of the 2016 presidential campaign to keep her from publicly discussing an affair she claimed to have had with Trump years earlier—which he has denied. Legal experts say prosecutors might argue reimbursement payments to Cohen for so-called legal services were a misdemeanor violation of falsifying business expenses, but they speculate Trump could also be charged with a felony under a largely untested legal theory identifying the payment to Daniels as an illegal campaign donation.
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@89th said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
Can anyone give me an objective (!) TLDR version of why Trump is being arrested?
From Forbes: "Bragg’s investigation centered around a $130,000 alleged hush money payment former Trump fixer Michael Cohen paid porn star Stormy Daniels in the final days of the 2016 presidential campaign to keep her from publicly discussing an affair she claimed to have had with Trump years earlier—which he has denied. Legal experts say prosecutors might argue reimbursement payments to Cohen for so-called legal services were a misdemeanor violation of falsifying business expenses, but they speculate Trump could also be charged with a felony under a largely untested legal theory identifying the payment to Daniels as an illegal campaign donation.
@Catseye3 said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
Trump could also be charged with a felony under a largely untested legal theory identifying the payment to Daniels as an illegal campaign donation
That theory died with John Edwards love-child adventure.
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I stopped tracking Trump's
crimesshenanigans some years ago. I'd seen enough to justify my prediction during his campaign -- that I posted right here, in fact -- that if he gets elected, he will either be forced to resign or be arrested for something. At this point, events have proceeded far enough along that my prediction is justified.It's good to be right.
I've been briefly tempted to climb back aboard and follow all this Bragg snarl, but have managed to resist.
In any situation, there exists a set of facts. They may not be readily apparent, but they're there somewhere. In this age of Internet and social, the obfuscation on Trump is at its uttermost. It is no longer possible to discover the facts, no. The best you can do is join the realm of the Right Clusterfuck or the Left Clusterfuck, and pretend to know the real truth -- or you can own the truth that the facts are buried too deep in a Mariana Trench of confusion, half-assery and short-temperedness to be of any use, but that give you bellowing rights on the barstool.
This is especially tempting a course if you don't actually give a fuck about the country but only about the party, and if you ever were of the belief that your party was the best for the country, that tail has long since outgrown the dog.
Oh, and about Trump? Dig it: It doesn't matter what happens with the Bragg thing. If things don't proceed organically, Trump will find a way to embroil himself in another one of his many transgressions -- oops, I mean dastardly false accusations.
@Catseye3 said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
In any situation, there exists a set of facts. They may not be readily apparent, but they're there somewhere. In this age of Internet and social, the obfuscation on Trump is at its uttermost. It is no longer possible to discover the facts, no. The best you can do is join the realm of the Right Clusterfuck or the Left Clusterfuck, and pretend to know the real truth
Belonging to neither of the clusterfucks, I will wait for the system to render the verdict. Let the chips fall where they may. If anyone broke the law, they should be held responsible. Period. Just like you or I would be held responsible. We should not break the system for a clusterfuck of any kind.
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@Catseye3 said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
In any situation, there exists a set of facts. They may not be readily apparent, but they're there somewhere. In this age of Internet and social, the obfuscation on Trump is at its uttermost. It is no longer possible to discover the facts, no. The best you can do is join the realm of the Right Clusterfuck or the Left Clusterfuck, and pretend to know the real truth
Belonging to neither of the clusterfucks, I will wait for the system to render the verdict. Let the chips fall where they may. If anyone broke the law, they should be held responsible. Period. Just like you or I would be held responsible. We should not break the system for a clusterfuck of any kind.
@mark said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
We should not break the system for a clusterfuck of any kind.
Agreed, but I was referring to right or left belief, not what is the truth.
Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka
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@mark said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
We should not break the system for a clusterfuck of any kind.
Agreed, but I was referring to right or left belief, not what is the truth.
@Catseye3 said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
@mark said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
We should not break the system for a clusterfuck of any kind.
Agreed, but I was referring to right or left belief, not what is the truth.
Yes. I feel the same. Belief does not make something true. So much tribalism. It needs to go away.
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While politicians shouldn’t be above the law, they shouldn’t be special targets either. And let’s face it, Donald Smith would never be charged for this. I mean this particular fact set and timelines, etc.
Now GA is a different story. For that he should be arrested, perp-walked, tried, convicted, and caged.
Only non-witches get due process.
- Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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While politicians shouldn’t be above the law, they shouldn’t be special targets either. And let’s face it, Donald Smith would never be charged for this. I mean this particular fact set and timelines, etc.
Now GA is a different story. For that he should be arrested, perp-walked, tried, convicted, and caged.
@jon-nyc said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
While politicians shouldn’t be above the law, they shouldn’t be special targets either. And let’s face it, Donald Smith would never be charged for this. I mean this particular fact set and timelines, etc.
Now GA is a different story. For that he should be arrested, perp-walked, tried, convicted, and caged.
I would agree that Georgia is a much more serious case, and if in a court of law he is found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt then he should pay the appropriate penalty.
I don’t like Donald Trump. I think he’s a buffoon, a narcissist, and can be an embarrassment. He’s a liar and a cheat. And he was a surprisingly good President. He failed at the critical moment, IMO, but no moreso and maybe less than Hilary or Uncle Joe would have. But the constant attacks and the NY crap? No, that needs to be squashed and squashed hard.
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While politicians shouldn’t be above the law, they shouldn’t be special targets either. And let’s face it, Donald Smith would never be charged for this. I mean this particular fact set and timelines, etc.
Now GA is a different story. For that he should be arrested, perp-walked, tried, convicted, and caged.
@jon-nyc said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
While politicians shouldn’t be above the law, they shouldn’t be special targets either. And let’s face it, Donald Smith would never be charged for this. I mean this particular fact set and timelines, etc.
Now GA is a different story. For that he should be arrested, perp-walked, tried, convicted, and caged.
I disagree. I think those that "serve" the public should be "special targets" in a sense, that the public has placed their trust in these people vs. a private citizen. As such, they should not be able to walk a tightrope where the law is concerned. They should be subjected to stiffer punishments for breaching the public trust.
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@mark said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
We should not break the system for a clusterfuck of any kind.
Agreed, but I was referring to right or left belief, not what is the truth.
@Catseye3 said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
@mark said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
We should not break the system for a clusterfuck of any kind.
Agreed, but I was referring to right or left belief, not what is the truth.
Nah, you don't care about the country.
See Jon's post. And Jon loathes Trump.
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@jon-nyc said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
While politicians shouldn’t be above the law, they shouldn’t be special targets either. And let’s face it, Donald Smith would never be charged for this. I mean this particular fact set and timelines, etc.
Now GA is a different story. For that he should be arrested, perp-walked, tried, convicted, and caged.
I disagree. I think those that "serve" the public should be "special targets" in a sense, that the public has placed their trust in these people vs. a private citizen. As such, they should not be able to walk a tightrope where the law is concerned. They should be subjected to stiffer punishments for breaching the public trust.
@mark said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
@jon-nyc said in Trump says he expects to be arrested on Tuesday:
While politicians shouldn’t be above the law, they shouldn’t be special targets either. And let’s face it, Donald Smith would never be charged for this. I mean this particular fact set and timelines, etc.
Now GA is a different story. For that he should be arrested, perp-walked, tried, convicted, and caged.
I disagree. I think those that "serve" the public should be "special targets" in a sense, that the public has placed their trust in these people vs. a private citizen. As such, they should not be able to walk a tightrope where the law is concerned. They should be subjected to stiffer punishments for breaching the public trust.
Show me the man and I'll show you the crime.
I suspect if the Justice Department decided to commit the resourcs to you, they have committed to Trump, you would be charged.
And you might even win. After the Feds bankrupted you and all of your family.
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89th, here's more detail in answer to your earlier question: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/trump-arrested-news-updates-indictment-counts-new-york-rcna77595
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Thanks, he'll probably be found guilty but have a light, if not suspended, sentence of like 60 days in jail.
