30% national sales tax?

[Jolly]

Let's do a 10% flat tax and be done with it.

[LuFins Dad]

I haven’t read the details of the proposal since it’s a non-starter, but I have read some arguments for a national sales tax before that I quite liked.

But it’s not going to poll well. Look at what’s going on in France with them raising the retirement age.

[LuFins Dad]

@Doctor-Phibes said in 30% national sales tax?:

Taxing poor people proportionally more than rich people seems like an electoral challenge.

Maybe the guy who suggested it just asked all his rich friends if they thought it was a good idea, and moved forward on that basis?

The proposals that I’ve seen in the past have all had tax-exempt cards for lower incomes.

Under this proposal Elon Musk would have paid taxes every year whether he had any income or not. Same as Trump…

[Jolly]

@LuFins-Dad said in 30% national sales tax?:

I haven’t read the details of the proposal since it’s a non-starter, but I have read some arguments for a national sales tax before that I quite liked.

But it’s not going to poll well. Look at what’s going on in France with them raising the retirement age.

Part of the problem is state and local sales tax. Closest city where I tend to do most of my shopping has a total sales tax of 10.5%. We also have a state income tax.

Throw a national sales tax on top of that, and get ready for pitchforks and torches.

[Horace]

I suppose it's not all bad to bring methods of taxation up for discussion, though the strategy of bringing this one to a vote is questionable.

[Jolly]

It's often said that if American were paid in cash by a person sitting at a table who first put their entire pay on the table and then took away SS, Medicare tax, federal tax, state tax, local tax, an average amount of sales taxes, property tax and any other taxes or taxes masquerading as fees...Well, there would be rioting in the streets.

[Horace]

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

It's often said that if American were paid in cash by a person sitting at a table who first put their entire pay on the table and then took away SS, Medicare tax, federal tax, state tax, local tax, an average amount of sales taxes, property tax and any other taxes or taxes masquerading as fees...Well, there would be rioting in the streets.

Imagine itemizing the dollars so that the taxpayer knew what each dollar was going towards.

[Jolly]

I think it was said that for Obama's "shovel ready" project bill, less than 10% actually went for concrete, steel, etc.

[Doctor Phibes]

@LuFins-Dad said in 30% national sales tax?:

@Doctor-Phibes said in 30% national sales tax?:

Taxing poor people proportionally more than rich people seems like an electoral challenge.

Maybe the guy who suggested it just asked all his rich friends if they thought it was a good idea, and moved forward on that basis?

The proposals that I’ve seen in the past have all had tax-exempt cards for lower incomes.

Under this proposal Elon Musk would have paid taxes every year whether he had any income or not. Same as Trump…

Yeah, but you're not taxing income, you're taxing expenditure. As people get richer, they need to spend a lower and lower proportion of what they earn. This system would therefore tax rich people less than poor people. You can cut the lowest rung (i.e. very low incomes) out of the system, but the problem remains.

You're also discouraging personal expenditure, which doesn't seem likely to keep the economy thriving. I'd be willing to bet that the likelihood of a recession occurring would be significantly increased by this philosophy.

[Jolly]

Tax everybody. Equally.

That way, everybody has skin in the game.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

Tax everybody. Equally.

That way, everybody has skin in the game.

Well, you've captured the all important 1%-er vote.

Now, how do you get the rest?

[jon-nyc]

@Horace said in 30% national sales tax?:

I suppose it's not all bad to bring methods of taxation up for discussion, though the strategy of bringing this one to a vote is questionable.

Bringing this up for a vote was one of the concessions McCarthy made to the MAGA crowd

[jon-nyc]

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

It's often said that if American were paid in cash by a person sitting at a table who first put their entire pay on the table and then took away SS, Medicare tax, federal tax, state tax, local tax, an average amount of sales taxes, property tax and any other taxes or taxes masquerading as fees...Well, there would be rioting in the streets.

Gingrich back in the day used to talk about how most middle class Americans could tell you, sometimes to the penny, what their refund was or what they owed in April, but very few could tell you what their total tax was.

He added that if there were no withholding and Americans had to write monthly checks then government would become a mere shadow of its former self.

[Jolly]

@Doctor-Phibes said in 30% national sales tax?:

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

Tax everybody. Equally.

That way, everybody has skin in the game.

Well, you've captured the all important 1%-er vote.

Now, how do you get the rest?

Franklin knew that once people knew they could vote themselves money, the Republic was doomed.

The solution to that is for everybody to pay taxes. When voting for this bridge, for this state university's request, for this national defense budget, the money needs to come out of every citizen in the city, in the state, in the country.

Maybe that's oversimplified, but the people need to decide what they need, based on the funds that everybody has had a part in generating . I think people would hold politicians more accountable for how their money is spent.

So, less money will be spent, but we'll have more to show for it

[Copper]

Like most retirees we live off savings.

That money has already been taxed.

Replacing income tax with sales tax would tax my savings all over again.

Money already taxed would have to be exempt .

[jon-nyc]

@Copper Well, most people's 401k and IRA funds haven't been taxed, nor has social security.

But many seniors spend pretty much all of their income, so suddenly they'd be paying 30% in federal taxes.

[Doctor Phibes]

I actually agree that everybody should pay taxes. What isn't realistic is the idea that everybody should pay the same percentage.

[Jolly]

@jon-nyc said in 30% national sales tax?:

@Copper Well, most people's 401k and IRA funds haven't been taxed, nor has social security.

But many seniors spend pretty much all of their income, so suddenly they'd be paying 30% in federal taxes.

Above a certain income level (and it ain't much), you'll pay taxes on your Social Security payments.

[jon-nyc]

@Jolly True that, I was making the point that for most seniors, the majority of their spending comes from sources not previously taxed (unlike post-tax investments made pre-retirement)

[George K]

@Jolly said in 30% national sales tax?:

you'll pay taxes on your Social Security payments.

Isn't that taxed at 15%?