Give 'em hell, Neil.
-
After-school Satan club tests the limits of church and state
-
@jon-nyc said in Give 'em hell, Neil.:
I wonder if Christians will remember Mr Gorsuch’s sage advice when the inevitable satanic prayer occurs on school property.
Oh, we already have the Satan Club at a school in my home town. There was a big fuss about it, but by now I suspect it has died out.
But even if the kid participates to fit in it isn't hurting them.
-
Damnation.
-
@jon-nyc said in Give 'em hell, Neil.:
I wonder if Christians will remember Mr Gorsuch’s sage advice when the inevitable satanic prayer occurs on school property.
Well considering the “Satanic Clubs” are not actually sincere expressions of faith and instead are created with the intent to belittle and antagonize… Yeah, let’s see that case taken to court. I would enjoy it.
-
Looks like you’ve already answered my question
-
Having SCOTUS decide what the “real” religions are doesn’t seem very first amendment-y.
-
@jon-nyc said in Give 'em hell, Neil.:
Having SCOTUS decide what the “real” religions are doesn’t seem very first amendment-y.
You're imagining a supreme court judgment which accepts satanism as a true religion, and rejects its practice on school grounds based on separation of church and state?
I don't suppose your local Christians would object to organized Satanism on school grounds based on the principle of church and state separation. They'd probably object based on the principle that satanism is destructive to the social fabric, and all that. Which would eventually run afoul of various laws, one assumes.
-
@Jolly said in Give 'em hell, Neil.:
@taiwan_girl said in Give 'em hell, Neil.:
The one thing that bothers me, maybe a bit unrelated, is the fact that the coach said that no one was required to attend and it didn't matter if they did or not.
In his brain he may think that, but the reality is - if you are member of a team, and the coach says - "I am going to do X. You can join me if you want, but it is not required.", you are probably going to join him, even if you don't agree.
For example, Teams hold "voluntary" workouts all the time. I am pretty sure the coaches know who is going to these "volunteer" workouts and how does not.
When a authority person says something is voluntary, especially when the people under him are teenagers or younger, you can be sure that there is unseen pressure to follow what the coach says.
I don't understand why he would want to put them in that situation. Tough for a kid who disagrees to say no.
You ae responsible for your own actions. If players or anybody else wishes to join him, have at it. If not, don't. That's simple. I think it fairly easy to prove the allegations of playing time, etc.
People are not responsible for other people's actions in such a matter, nor are they responsible for what people may or may not think.
Nobody should live their life walking on eggshells.
Hmmm. Not sure it is that easy. A teenager or below can be swayed by peer pressure. It is a big big thing. And if the authority figure is the one supplying the peer pressure (whether they know it or not), then it is an even higher level.
-
@taiwan_girl said in Give 'em hell, Neil.:
@Jolly said in Give 'em hell, Neil.:
@taiwan_girl said in Give 'em hell, Neil.:
The one thing that bothers me, maybe a bit unrelated, is the fact that the coach said that no one was required to attend and it didn't matter if they did or not.
In his brain he may think that, but the reality is - if you are member of a team, and the coach says - "I am going to do X. You can join me if you want, but it is not required.", you are probably going to join him, even if you don't agree.
For example, Teams hold "voluntary" workouts all the time. I am pretty sure the coaches know who is going to these "volunteer" workouts and how does not.
When a authority person says something is voluntary, especially when the people under him are teenagers or younger, you can be sure that there is unseen pressure to follow what the coach says.
I don't understand why he would want to put them in that situation. Tough for a kid who disagrees to say no.
You ae responsible for your own actions. If players or anybody else wishes to join him, have at it. If not, don't. That's simple. I think it fairly easy to prove the allegations of playing time, etc.
People are not responsible for other people's actions in such a matter, nor are they responsible for what people may or may not think.
Nobody should live their life walking on eggshells.
Hmmm. Not sure it is that easy. A teenager or below can be swayed by peer pressure. It is a big big thing. And if the authority figure is the one supplying the peer pressure (whether they know it or not), then it is an even higher level.
Well then, sugar, let us not have any authority figure do anything. Ever. Wouldn't want to impact those little minds of mush, would we?
If the parents of the kids he coaches or the parents of the students he teaches or rubs elbows with have reservations or just plain dislike about a man praying on a football field, let them instruct and educate their children why they think the prayer is wrong and why they should not participate.
Nobody is forcing them to join him. Nobody. And as long as there are no repercussions for not joining him - and there hasn't been, or that would have come out in court - then kwitcherbitchin.
High school football, even though the average player is not as big or fast as in college (and certainly not the pros) is a violent game. Guys get slobber-knocked on occasion. Knees get torn up, ankles sprained, myriad bones are broken and guys get concussed. Way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I played with a leather helmet (not really, I'm not quite that old), I've had a knee screwed up, a broken arm and was hospitalized with a concussion (but you should have seen the other guy
), but even in a game where I had no injuries, I'd wake up the next morning so stiff I could barely walk, with bruises all over.Nobody come and jerks you up from your desk and makes you suit up and head out to the football field. Guys play because they want to. In many ways, it's a wonderful game. It teaches a high level of teamwork, more than most other sports. All eleven guys have to do their job, or a play goes for minimal gains or is a bust. On the other side, are eleven guys trying to do their jobs perfectly, to ensure the play is for a loss or no gain. There are games within games...stretch blocks, zone blocks, whams, G-pulls, influence blocks, gap calls, snap changes, audibles, silent counts, pocket switch-offs...and that's just a few things on the offensive line.
It's also a game that pushes your physical limits and makes you perform, even when you're exhausted. You reach down and find something that let's you continue, even when you can't. It teaches you can do more than you thought you were capable of doing. The game has a beginning and an end, with those who can grit their teeth in the fourth quarter, often emerging with victory, simply because they want it more than the players across the ball from them.
So it's a great game, but a complicated game and never forget - a violent game. Even unto paralysis or death. The guys who play, know that going in. It's all on the waiver you sign acknowledging the danger of the sport. Ever notice at a high school, college or pro game, when some guy gets pilayed out on the field, he's not moving and they've sent for the cart, players (even from opposing teams) are kneeling on the field and praying for the injured player to be all right?
You want to take that away, too? Afraid it might influence some youngster the way you don't want them influenced?
Personally, when I'm hurt, and you've got that numb feeling before the pain washes over you and you don't know what's broken or badly injured, I wouldn't mind a few prayers. Not at all.
And if a high school football coach wishes to pray out loud on his knees after a game to a benevolent God, thanking him for no serious injuries or praying for those were injured, it's not a bad thing.
-
@taiwan_girl said in Give 'em hell, Neil.:
@Jolly said in Give 'em hell, Neil.:
@taiwan_girl said in Give 'em hell, Neil.:
The one thing that bothers me, maybe a bit unrelated, is the fact that the coach said that no one was required to attend and it didn't matter if they did or not.
In his brain he may think that, but the reality is - if you are member of a team, and the coach says - "I am going to do X. You can join me if you want, but it is not required.", you are probably going to join him, even if you don't agree.
For example, Teams hold "voluntary" workouts all the time. I am pretty sure the coaches know who is going to these "volunteer" workouts and how does not.
When a authority person says something is voluntary, especially when the people under him are teenagers or younger, you can be sure that there is unseen pressure to follow what the coach says.
I don't understand why he would want to put them in that situation. Tough for a kid who disagrees to say no.
You ae responsible for your own actions. If players or anybody else wishes to join him, have at it. If not, don't. That's simple. I think it fairly easy to prove the allegations of playing time, etc.
People are not responsible for other people's actions in such a matter, nor are they responsible for what people may or may not think.
Nobody should live their life walking on eggshells.
Hmmm. Not sure it is that easy. A teenager or below can be swayed by peer pressure. It is a big big thing. And if the authority figure is the one supplying the peer pressure (whether they know it or not), then it is an even higher level.
So what? How is that kid harmed by kneeling down and shutting his eyes for a few seconds? I've done it many, many times not out of any religious faith just out of respect for those I am associating with. There are times to take a stand, and times to just shut up and respect the views of others. It's part of civil society.
"My pronouns are FA/FO." - Mik, 2024
-
@Mik said in Give 'em hell, Neil.:
So what? How is that kid harmed by kneeling down and shutting his eyes for a few seconds? I've done it many, many times not out of any religious faith just out of respect for those I am associating with. There are times to take a stand, and times to just shut up and respect the views of others. It's part of civil society.
How is the coach harmed by not kneeling down at the 50 yard line while on the clock as a state employee? There are plenty of other times he could be kneeling down in his own private time while not on the clock as an agent of the state. “There are times to take a stand, and times to just shut up and respect the views of others; it’s part of civil society” could just have been as easily said to the coach. A middle-aged coach should have known that much better than a bunch of kids, don’t you think?
Compare this to you complaining about a drag queen reading books to children at a library — why didn’t you tell the kids to just shut up and respect the view of others then? In the case of book reading at the library, the book reader is a private volunteer (not an agent of the state) and the kids don’t even have to “shut up and respect the view of others,” the kids can be there or not be there with zero pressure, zero impact on his social standing — it’s a true voluntary reader, voluntary attendee environment. If you yourself could not put up with the book reading by a private volunteer with zero authority, why ask the kids to put up with the kneeling of a coach who is a state employee with state-delegated authority? Where is your “small government,” “limited government” bona fide?
-
@Mik @Jolly Maybe I was not very clear.
I was not saying that what the coach was doing was right or wrong, just that I would think there was probably some "unseen" or "subtle" pressure to go along with what the coach does.
I believe that kids at that age want to "belong". Of course, not 100% of kids, but the ones that do their own thing are probably not on the football team.
If there were 50 kids on the team, and one of them decides not to participate, I think we would be looked at differently, and not in a positive way.
Part of my thinking is probably cultural. There seems to be more "respect" for teachers etc. in Tiawan than in the US. We can argue if that is good or bad, but that is the way I grew up, and if a similar situation happened in Taiwan, I can almost say for sure that 100% of the students would follow the coach, even if 99% of them were atheist.
-
And it wouldn't hurt them one little bit. We have pressure to do all sorts of things in society. That is the entire nature of civilization. We give up some individual freedoms to reap the benefit of a cohesive whole. There will always be some degree of conformity required. This is what the coach believes is good for his team.
"My pronouns are FA/FO." - Mik, 2024
-
@Mik said in Give 'em hell, Neil.:
And it wouldn't hurt them one little bit. We have pressure to do all sorts of things in society. That is the entire nature of civilization. We give up some individual freedoms to reap the benefit of a cohesive whole. There will always be some degree of conformity required. This is what the coach believes is good for his team.
It would not have hurt the coach one little bit to not kneel at the 50 yard line while on the clock as an agent of the state. We have pressure to do all sort of things in society. That is is the entire nature of civilization. We give up some individual freedoms to reap the benefits of a cohesive whole. There will always be some degree of conformity required. The coach could have done better by giving up his little bit of self-righteousness.
@Mik argues to let the kids bear the pressure and spare the coach.
I say let the coach (the adult) bear the pressure and spare the kids.
