The hearings broadcast

Horace

@George-K said in The hearings broadcast:

Got a direct quote for that, or is it "an unnamed person, said that POTUS said that?"

I think my first or second post was asking if there was evidence of him saying it since I didn't watch the hearings. Later it shifted to a sadness that the reaction of "lol that's just Trump being Trump" is how low the bar as been lowered if indeed he did say that Pence deserves to be hanged.

It's not coherent or fair to hold people to some standard of outrage over an event that may or may not have occurred. There is plenty of factual common ground we can use to explore differences of opinion and reaction to Jan 6. It's not fair to take this salacious hypothetical, which happens make it sound like there really was an insurrection afoot, and judge people for their reactions to it.

Mik

@Axtremus said in The hearings broadcast:

@Mik said in The hearings broadcast:

You will notice she did not say she agreed with Barr, only that she respected him and accepted what he was saying. ...

Yeah, but what do you think of William Barr's testimony?

You posted both. You tell me.

Jolly

@89th said in The hearings broadcast:

@George-K said in The hearings broadcast:

Got a direct quote for that, or is it "an unnamed person, said that POTUS said that?"

I think my first or second post was asking if there was evidence of him saying it since I didn't watch the hearings. Later it shifted to a sadness that the reaction of "lol that's just Trump being Trump" is how low the bar as been lowered if indeed he did say that Pence deserves to be hanged.

BTW what's the point? I think Congress has a duty to provide a very clear and accurate picture of what happened that day. I'd say that if it was Obama or Biden at the microphone that day telling his supporters that they should march and confront Congress, that they need to fight like hell, that they can't let an illegitimate president be sworn in, etc.

And he also told them to go home.
But you're not going to see that.

Besides, you've already made up your mind, so let's not confuse you with facts.

89th

@Jolly said in The hearings broadcast:

And he also told them to go home.
But you're not going to see that.

Besides, you've already made up your mind, so let's not confuse you with facts.

I would hope the hearings (or historical record of events that day) included when Trump eventually posted a video message telling the protestors to go home.

I guess you'll never believe me that I am objective regarding this event. Political parties don't have an impact on my opinion of what happened.

Just looked at a timeline:

1:10pm - Trump tells protestors to fight like hell
1:45pm - Protestors break through Capitol police line
2:24pm - Trump tweets about Pence not having the courage to do what was needed
2:24pm - Pence evacuated as the building is flooded with protestors and rioters
3:13pm - Trump tweets asking folks to remain peaceful
4:17pm - Trump releases video asking folks to go home, and repeats that the election was stolen, the government is taking away their votes, and that he loves the protestors

Horace

@89th said in The hearings broadcast:

@Jolly said in The hearings broadcast:

And he also told them to go home.
But you're not going to see that.

Besides, you've already made up your mind, so let's not confuse you with facts.

I would hope the hearings (or historical record of events that day) included when Trump eventually posted a video message telling the protestors to go home.

I guess you'll never believe me that I am objective regarding this event. Political parties don't have an impact on my opinion of what happened.

Just looked at a timeline:

1:10pm - Trump tells protestors to fight like hell

1:45pm - Protestors break through Capitol police line

2:24pm - Trump tweets about Pence not having the courage to do what was needed

2:24pm - Pence evacuated as the building is flooded with protestors and rioters

3:13pm - Trump tweets asking folks to remain peaceful

4:17pm - Trump releases video asking folks to go home, and repeats that the election was stolen, the government is taking away their votes, and that he loves the protestors

Trump riled up a mob by convincing them the election was stolen, based on weak or non-existent evidence, the mob broke the law and trespassed into the Capitol, and Trump tsk tsked them upon hearing they broke the law, and told them to go home and stop breaking the law. Historically, this will be considered an insurrection, and we all have to decide where we come down on that framing. Whether we want to side with those pushing that framing, knowing full well the political intentions of that messaging - to shame, in the future, anybody siding politically with the right. You can feel objective all you want, but you might want to consider whose hand you're playing into while you bask in the objectivity.

Mik

More of a tantrum than an insurrection.

Doctor Phibes

@Mik said in The hearings broadcast:

More of a tantrum than an insurrection.

Yeah, he acted like a whiny little spoiled brat who's had his teddy bear confiscated.

Sadly, rather than hoicking his underpants over his head and pushing him in the lake where he so richly deserved to be, his little gang of followers went right along supporting his childish outburst.

89th

@Horace said in The hearings broadcast:

@89th said in The hearings broadcast:

@Jolly said in The hearings broadcast:

And he also told them to go home.
But you're not going to see that.

Besides, you've already made up your mind, so let's not confuse you with facts.

I would hope the hearings (or historical record of events that day) included when Trump eventually posted a video message telling the protestors to go home.

I guess you'll never believe me that I am objective regarding this event. Political parties don't have an impact on my opinion of what happened.

Just looked at a timeline:

1:10pm - Trump tells protestors to fight like hell

1:45pm - Protestors break through Capitol police line

2:24pm - Trump tweets about Pence not having the courage to do what was needed

2:24pm - Pence evacuated as the building is flooded with protestors and rioters

3:13pm - Trump tweets asking folks to remain peaceful

4:17pm - Trump releases video asking folks to go home, and repeats that the election was stolen, the government is taking away their votes, and that he loves the protestors

Trump riled up a mob by convincing them the election was stolen, based on weak or non-existent evidence, the mob broke the law and trespassed into the Capitol, and Trump tsk tsked them upon hearing they broke the law, and told them to go home and stop breaking the law. Historically, this will be considered an insurrection, and we all have to decide where we come down on that framing. Whether we want to side with those pushing that framing, knowing full well the political intentions of that messaging - to shame, in the future, anybody siding politically with the right. You can feel objective all you want, but you might want to consider whose hand you're playing into while you bask in the objectivity.

Objectively, your first half is pretty accurate. Whether I personally see this as <dramatic music> an insurrection </dramatic music>, based on the evidence I would say overall it wasn't.

It was, in order: A) a protest of thousands on the Mall (per the President's instructions), and of that B) most people protesting moved to protest at the Capitol (per the President's instructions), and of that C) about 10-20% ignored the President's instructions to protest peacefully and followed the President's instructions to fight literally and participated in an insurrection who fought their way inside the Capitol where D) only a few dozen had seemingly violent intentions to confront [or worse] those trying to execute their Constitutional electoral duty.

That being said, I have zero problem if the history books overall classify the events as an insurrection. No President should ever do what Trump did again after a landslide loss. If it were me, I would classify it as a protest over false claims of election fraud, of which there was a minority element that participated in a failed insurrection inspired by false claims.

Horace

@89th said in The hearings broadcast:

@Horace said in The hearings broadcast:

@89th said in The hearings broadcast:

@Jolly said in The hearings broadcast:

And he also told them to go home.
But you're not going to see that.

Besides, you've already made up your mind, so let's not confuse you with facts.

I would hope the hearings (or historical record of events that day) included when Trump eventually posted a video message telling the protestors to go home.

I guess you'll never believe me that I am objective regarding this event. Political parties don't have an impact on my opinion of what happened.

Just looked at a timeline:

1:10pm - Trump tells protestors to fight like hell

1:45pm - Protestors break through Capitol police line

2:24pm - Trump tweets about Pence not having the courage to do what was needed

2:24pm - Pence evacuated as the building is flooded with protestors and rioters

3:13pm - Trump tweets asking folks to remain peaceful

4:17pm - Trump releases video asking folks to go home, and repeats that the election was stolen, the government is taking away their votes, and that he loves the protestors

Trump riled up a mob by convincing them the election was stolen, based on weak or non-existent evidence, the mob broke the law and trespassed into the Capitol, and Trump tsk tsked them upon hearing they broke the law, and told them to go home and stop breaking the law. Historically, this will be considered an insurrection, and we all have to decide where we come down on that framing. Whether we want to side with those pushing that framing, knowing full well the political intentions of that messaging - to shame, in the future, anybody siding politically with the right. You can feel objective all you want, but you might want to consider whose hand you're playing into while you bask in the objectivity.

Objectively, your first half is pretty accurate. Whether I personally see this as <dramatic music> an insurrection </dramatic music>, based on the evidence I would say overall it wasn't.

It was, in order: A) a protest of thousands on the Mall (per the President's instructions), and of that B) most people protesting moved to protest at the Capitol (per the President's instructions), and of that C) about 10-20% ignored the President's instructions to protest peacefully and followed the President's instructions to fight literally and participated in an insurrection who fought their way inside the Capitol where D) only a few dozen had seemingly violent intentions to confront [or worse] those trying to execute their Constitutional electoral duty.

That being said, I have zero problem if the history books overall classify the events as an insurrection. No President should ever do what Trump did again after a landslide loss. If it were me, I would classify it as a protest over false claims of election fraud, of which there was a minority element that participated in a failed insurrection inspired by false claims.

I would go with riot. "Insurrection" implies a plan in the heads of real people, connected to any plausible reality, where the government would be taken over.

89th

Yeah that makes sense to me too.

Jolly

@89th said in The hearings broadcast:

@Horace said in The hearings broadcast:

@89th said in The hearings broadcast:

@Jolly said in The hearings broadcast:

And he also told them to go home.
But you're not going to see that.

Besides, you've already made up your mind, so let's not confuse you with facts.

I would hope the hearings (or historical record of events that day) included when Trump eventually posted a video message telling the protestors to go home.

I guess you'll never believe me that I am objective regarding this event. Political parties don't have an impact on my opinion of what happened.

Just looked at a timeline:

1:10pm - Trump tells protestors to fight like hell

1:45pm - Protestors break through Capitol police line

2:24pm - Trump tweets about Pence not having the courage to do what was needed

2:24pm - Pence evacuated as the building is flooded with protestors and rioters

3:13pm - Trump tweets asking folks to remain peaceful

4:17pm - Trump releases video asking folks to go home, and repeats that the election was stolen, the government is taking away their votes, and that he loves the protestors

Trump riled up a mob by convincing them the election was stolen, based on weak or non-existent evidence, the mob broke the law and trespassed into the Capitol, and Trump tsk tsked them upon hearing they broke the law, and told them to go home and stop breaking the law. Historically, this will be considered an insurrection, and we all have to decide where we come down on that framing. Whether we want to side with those pushing that framing, knowing full well the political intentions of that messaging - to shame, in the future, anybody siding politically with the right. You can feel objective all you want, but you might want to consider whose hand you're playing into while you bask in the objectivity.

Objectively, your first half is pretty accurate. Whether I personally see this as <dramatic music> an insurrection </dramatic music>, based on the evidence I would say overall it wasn't.

It was, in order: A) a protest of thousands on the Mall (per the President's instructions), and of that B) most people protesting moved to protest at the Capitol (per the President's instructions), and of that C) about 10-20% ignored the President's instructions to protest peacefully and followed the President's instructions to fight literally and participated in an insurrection who fought their way inside the Capitol where D) only a few dozen had seemingly violent intentions to confront [or worse] those trying to execute their Constitutional electoral duty.

That being said, I have zero problem if the history books overall classify the events as an insurrection. No President should ever do what Trump did again after a landslide loss. If it were me, I would classify it as a protest over false claims of election fraud, of which there was a minority element that participated in a failed insurrection inspired by false claims.

Flat ass wrong.

Insurrection - an organized and usually violent act of revolt or rebellion against an established government or governing authority of a nation-state or other political entity by a group of its citizens or subjects; also, any act of engaging in such a revolt.

You call that riot organized?
In the most heavily armed country on the planet, NOBODY had a gun. Not in the riot.
The rioters were not rioting against the principles of the government, they were rioting for what they perceived as illegal acts perpetrated by elements of the government and not adhering to free and fair elections, as specified in the Constitution.

89th

Yeah I think protect turned riot is more accurate, for sure. Insurrection? Not really, although one has to wonder what the handful of folks actually would’ve done if they had reached Pence or Nancy that day. I’d imagine most would’ve just gotten into a shouting match. Either way, storming the Capitol to stop our constitutional election process sure borders in the gray area between riot and insurrection. Semantics, anyway.

Jolly

I'll give you riot. It certainly was. Insurrection? No.

And I've said it many times, as have a lot of other people...I think there was much more organization in the BLM and Antifa riots, than there was at the Jan 6 riot. Twenty million people took part in the BLM riots, which caused $2-$3 billion dollars worth of damage vs. maybe 120,000 at Trump's rally and probably less than 1200 people at the Capitol, with those at the Capitol causing about $1.5 million dollars worth of damage. There were 30 people killed at the various BLM riots vs. 1 death (Babbitt) at the Jan 6 riot.

So ask yourself a few questions...

Why didn't the BLM and Antifa riots receive the same level of media attention as January 6?
Why has there been so many resources devoted to investigating a single riot at the Capitol vs. resources investigating the people who torched Federal courthouses and other government buildings?
Why have their been more arrests per capita for the Jan 6th rioters vs. those of BLM or Antifa?
Why have Jan6 rioters been held without bail for lengthy periods?
Why have Jan 6 rioters received much harsher sentences than BLM or Antifa rioters?
And this is the big one: In America, is there equal justice under the law?

LuFins Dad

For good or ill, I’ll remind you that most of the people there were under the incorrect (IMO) assumption that Pence could LEGALLY not certify the results. From their POV, they weren’t trying to illegally disrupt the electoral process.

Now they were wrong, and ignorance of the law is no defense, but it does hurt the whole “premeditated” part.

That being said, I do believe that there were some VERY bad actors involved that did promote and push the throng for their own reasons.

I still want to know why Nancy refused the National Guard offers the eeek before.

Aqua Letifer

@LuFins-Dad said in The hearings broadcast:

From their POV, they weren’t trying to illegally disrupt the electoral process.

I was with you until you said this. You make it sound like they were taking a group stroll, looked up after awhile and noticed they happened to be standing in Pelosi's office. Like, instead of the Mall. Because they made a wrong turn.

For what it's worth, my position is that:

These people are fucking cretins for what they did
No, it wasn't premeditated for a whole lot of 'em
These "hearings" are a joke for the reasons already mentioned

Jolly

Something I'd like to know...Who were the FBI informants and did they participate in helping create the riot?

89th

Link to video

Worth watching at least the first half if not the full. Seems quite candid and I'd share his frustration with the implications.

BTW here is the video (at the 2 min mark) they are referring to. Pretty dumb to try and connect these dots.

Link to video

Jolly

@Jolly said in The hearings broadcast:

Something I'd like to know...Who were the FBI informants and did they participate in helping create the riot?

Again, watch for this one. I don't think you're going to see it.

There are some legitimate questions out there regarding FBI agents and/or their informants, and their role in possibly egging on the demonstrators, not to mention their actions during the riot itself.

Horace

@89th said in The hearings broadcast:

Link to video

Worth watching at least the first half if not the full. Seems quite candid and I'd share his frustration with the implications.

BTW here is the video (at the 2 min mark) they are referring to. Pretty dumb to try and connect these dots.

Link to video

They told us we would devolve into kangaroo courts if Trump was elected, and they were right.

Catseye3

@Aqua-Letifer said in The hearings broadcast:

For what it's worth, my position is that:

These people are fucking cretins for what they did
No, it wasn't premeditated for a whole lot of 'em
These "hearings" are a joke for the reasons already mentioned.

The Trump encouragement didn't start the week before or because of the "stolen" election; what most seem to be missing (or ignoring) is that it began in the very beginning, even while he was campaigning. It may even have been unconscious on his part. But the seeds for Jan 6 (or as it is now sexily being dubbed, J6, eyeroll) were planted and watered in the wayback -- as one barstooler after another nodded his head and firmed his jaw at Trump's every utterance.

The New Coffee Room

The hearings broadcast