Fertility clinics in some red states

[Aqua Letifer]

@Ivorythumper said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

@Ivorythumper said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

I think it does certainly show the problem of IVF, that human beings can be frozen in an early stage of development and later reanimated, and that there are moral implications to this practice.

How so? Does the Church have a problem with children who are conceived via IVF?

The Church reprobates IVF as a practice, but does not have any problem with the children who are conceived by IVF.

The moral problem is the indignity to the human person who is held in suspension for the preference of the parents.

What does "preference" mean in this context?

[jon-nyc]

@89th imagine if they had to do one at a time to avoid creating one that later would not be implanted.

Sounds like it would be a lot of sessions in many cases and even less affordable.

[jon-nyc]

Or maybe they could still give hormones to the woman to induce multiple eggs and freeze them unfertilized, then thaw them one by one for fertilization and implant.

[jon-nyc]

Interesting stats from a 2019 paper. About 1.6% of births are IVF births. Some 600,000 embryos are currently frozen and about 25% of them get abandoned when the parents stop paying the bill.

[jon-nyc]

It will be interesting to see how MO and other states handle the frozen ones.

Do they have a right to a womb? In the case of a donated egg, whose womb do they hold the claim on?

Will the state seek volunteers, essentially put them up for adoption?

[Ivorythumper]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

@Ivorythumper said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

@Ivorythumper said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

I think it does certainly show the problem of IVF, that human beings can be frozen in an early stage of development and later reanimated, and that there are moral implications to this practice.

How so? Does the Church have a problem with children who are conceived via IVF?

The Church reprobates IVF as a practice, but does not have any problem with the children who are conceived by IVF.

The moral problem is the indignity to the human person who is held in suspension for the preference of the parents.

What does "preference" mean in this context?

Well, preference is my term.

First, I want to tread carefully here, respectful of those who are or have been involved in IVF or have experienced the frustration, disappointment, heartbreak, and suffering of not being able to conceive naturally. I speak from personal experience, and have grappled morally with the Church's teaching.

Preference is deciding when and if that conceived offspring is to be allowed to join the family and enter into the mutual love relationship of family with his or her parents.

[Ivorythumper]

@jon-nyc said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

It will be interesting to see how MO and other states handle the frozen ones.

Do they have a right to a womb? In the case of a donated egg, whose womb do they hold the claim on?

Will the state seek volunteers, essentially put them up for adoption?

You're asking all the right questions.

[Mik]

Off topic somewhat, but I would like to see a simultaneous push to expand and streamline our adoption machinery in this country. There will be a lot of babies born that are not wanted.

[jon-nyc]

I’ve seen estimates that the number of abortions will decrease only by about 10-15% since abortion is more common in states that are abortion friendly.

Also read that they are disproportionately obtained by black women.

So I’m guessing more black babies in red states is what we should expect.

[Doctor Phibes]

@jon-nyc said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

So I’m guessing more black babies in red states is what we should expect.

Which could conceivably (pun intended) come back to bite Republicans in the ass

[Aqua Letifer]

@Doctor-Phibes said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

@jon-nyc said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

So I’m guessing more black babies in red states is what we should expect.

Which could conceivably (pun intended) come back to bite Republicans in the ass

Not with the generous amount of social assistance that is so prevalent in those states.

[Ivorythumper]

@Doctor-Phibes said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

@jon-nyc said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

So I’m guessing more black babies in red states is what we should expect.

Which could conceivably (pun intended) come back to bite Republicans in the ass

that sort of pun should be condomed.

[Copper]

@jon-nyc said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

Also read that they are disproportionately obtained by black women.

So I’m guessing more black babies in red states is what we should expect.

I'm guessing more black women will simply keep their pants on

No more single moms struggling to get by

No more broken families

No more deadbeat dads

More dignity and self sufficiency

This will usher in the golden age of not-aborted black people

[George K]

@Copper said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

I'm guessing more black women will simply keep their pants on

No more single moms struggling to get by

No more broken families

No more deadbeat dads

More dignity and self sufficiency

This will usher in the golden age of not-aborted black people

Half-full today. Good on ya, @copper!

[Doctor Phibes]

@George-K said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

@Copper said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

I'm guessing more black women will simply keep their pants on

No more single moms struggling to get by

No more broken families

No more deadbeat dads

More dignity and self sufficiency

This will usher in the golden age of not-aborted black people

Half-full today. Good on ya, @copper!

Half full of what, though?

[jon-nyc]

Someone once wrote that, at first approximation, middle+ class use birth control, working class use abortion, and the poor use the crib.

[Axtremus]

@jon-nyc said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

Someone once wrote that, at first approximation, middle+ class use birth control, working class use abortion, and the poor use the crib.

Gasp, nobody uses abstinence!?

[Copper]

When we went through IVF I'm not sure if freezing was an option.

IVF was still kind of new.

And for what we paid, I used to tell them that my name should be over the door.

[taiwan_girl]

Wasnt it Freaknomics that had something like:

"Decrease in crime can be related to increase in abortion, because more abortions were done by people in poorer areas?"

[89th]

@jon-nyc said in Fertility clinics in some red states:

@89th imagine if they had to do one at a time to avoid creating one that later would not be implanted.

Sounds like it would be a lot of sessions in many cases and even less affordable.

What you're referencing is called the "retrieval" part of the process, basically. It usually ends up with the woman providing a number of eggs (usually between 5-20, IIRC) to which the male's sperm is then exposed in a lab environment, resulting in a number of fertilized zygotes which then become blastocysts/embryos (of which usually half show a mitosis strong enough to be considered a candidate for IVF transfer).

To keep it simple, the process basically goes like this:

• Retrieve 20 eggs
• 10 are fertilized
• 5 become "transfer-worthy" embryos
• IVF has about a 30% success rate, so usually 2-4 IVF rounds are needed

Depending on where you go, off the top of my head the retrieval/fertilization part is like $10k, and each IVF round is like $5k.

So yes, trying to start and end that whole process with just 1 embryo is nearly impractical. Not to mention the cost for the services, the HUNDREDS of doctor visits involved (we probably had 200-300 visits over 24 months before we had our first kid, no joke), the numerous daily shots you have to give the woman, and the emotional stress of the whole thing.