State of the art progressive thought re: Trump refusing to leave office
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@jon-nyc said in State of the art progressive thought re: Trump refusing to leave office:
Hence my question.
I was talking to the cloud of people concerned that Trump might use violence to try to stay in office. While it surprises me to hear you express this as a "legitimate concern", I do not think you see the rioting as justified because racism. I do think most (not all) people who have your concerns about Trump, do see the riots as basically justified, or at least a good pill for our racist society to swallow, so it can finally learn.
Anyway, I would be curious about your answer to my first question about what form an argument might take that could plausibly convince you that your concern is not legitimate.
And I think my comparison to our current riots is a pretty good one, vis a vis people's reactions.
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It will be really fun if we have tiny pockets of violent thugs rioting over a Trump loss, to watch the left group his whole base along with them. The same people trying super hard to differentiate between the peaceful protesters and the rioters. That will be really fun to watch.
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@jon-nyc said in State of the art progressive thought re: Trump refusing to leave office:
Loki, still think the concern is unjustified?
Right this minute the Democrat party is joining in with Antifa and Black Lives matter calling for refunding the police. Right as we speak the democrats are demanding the National Guard be removed from the cities they are helping protect. For 3 fucking years we sat through an attempted coup driven by the Democrat party.
You don't need to spend your time worrying about Trump refusing to leave office, Jon. You need to worry that the democrats might get back in. Because if they do this nation is toast. They are not the loyal opposition any more. They are a terrorist organization populated by fascists.
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Well, the 'talk me out of it' was just a reference to an internet meme. I'll lower the bar.
Tell me why you think it couldn't happen.
Do you think Trump wouldn't declare an apparent loss illegitimate?
Do you think his base wouldn't back him?
Or do you think there's nothing he or his supporters could do to marshall a competing set of electors from GOP-led swing states? Or to just invalidate whole classes of votes?
Or do you think the military or other institutions would step in to stop him if he tried that?
If there's some other factor that you think would prevent it, let me know.
Keep in mind all of this is conditional on his loss. So saying 'this won't happen because Trump will win the vote, at least as discounted by the electoral college' isn't good enough.
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Trump is liable to call a loss "illegitimate". Lots of losers of elections have done so, that is an irrelevancy.
Many of Trump's base would back him on that claim, again irrelevant and commonplace.
I think there is no plausible path forward for Trump to use violence to stay in office.
and no, I will not attempt to establish that it is "impossible". "Impossible" is not necessary for something to not be a "legitimate concern", especially when the "legitimate concern" is fun to say out loud to drive home the point that orange man bad.
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Jon, you've already tossed the "popular vote" rock. We don't elect by popular vote. Who's the whining little bitches with that one? The Democrat party is pushing vote by mail, but not talking much about the part they call "vote harvesting". That's where party operatives manipulate the votes, bags full of sorted ballots suddenly get lost.. it's nothing more than a scheme to steal elections - something democrats are famous for. So the Right has plenty of reason - historically proven reason - to be cautious about the democrats stealing the election. This question of yours about Trump is just you repeating a conspiracy theory being promoted by the Democrat party to divert attention from their actual, real time attempt to steal the election.
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Democrats need to smoke tjis over - because theyve got bigger worries than this silly claim about Trump refusing to leave office:
- Jobless numbers released today - unemployment rate dropped
- Dow is heading up like a rocket. The economy is bouncing back even faster than expected.
- Both Biden and Obama have been implicated as having personally been involved in the attempted coup.
By November Biden may not even be on the ticket.
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@Horace said in State of the art progressive thought re: Trump refusing to leave office:
Trump is liable to call a loss "illegitimate". Lots of losers of elections have done so, that is an irrelevancy.
Many of Trump's base would back him on that claim, again irrelevant and commonplace.
I think there is no plausible path forward for Trump to use violence to stay in office.
and no, I will not attempt to establish that it is "impossible". "Impossible" is not necessary for something to not be a "legitimate concern", especially when the "legitimate concern" is fun to say out loud to drive home the point that orange man bad.
You conceded my first two concerns then skipped the rest, ending on a nice straw man. Perhaps it wasn't intentional, want to try again?
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@Larry said in State of the art progressive thought re: Trump refusing to leave office:
Jon, you seem to be worried that Trump will do what Hillary and the Democrat party did last time....
No no no. I don't care about demonstrations and op-eds. I'm worried about a constitutional crisis, a la 1876 but worse.
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@Larry said in State of the art progressive thought re: Trump refusing to leave office:
Jon, you've already tossed the "popular vote" rock. We don't elect by popular vote. Who's the whining little bitches with that one? The Democrat party is pushing vote by mail, but not talking much about the part they call "vote harvesting". That's where party operatives manipulate the votes, bags full of sorted ballots suddenly get lost.. it's nothing more than a scheme to steal elections - something democrats are famous for. So the Right has plenty of reason - historically proven reason - to be cautious about the democrats stealing the election. This question of yours about Trump is just you repeating a conspiracy theory being promoted by the Democrat party to divert attention from their actual, real time attempt to steal the election.
Translation: "Yes we would totally back him if he declared a loss illegitimate, and we would totally back any swing state governor who puts up a competing set of electors or invalidated whole classes of votes"
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You're being intellectually dishonest, Jon.
If you will remember, Hillary and the Democrat party posed this exact same question during the debates before the last election. They straight up asked him if he lost would he accept the results. Then Hillary lost, and before you could say boo she was out refusing to accept the results, and the democrats began their attempted coup.
Now the question is being asked again, and I refuse to believe that you're not intelligent enough to see it for what it is.
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DON’T let them eat cake.
- RFK Jr -
@jon-nyc said in State of the art progressive thought re: Trump refusing to leave office:
Which of my steps do you think wouldn’t happen? Specifically.
Again assuming Trump doesn’t just plain old win on election night.
Horace already put it quite succinctly.
"Trump is liable to call a loss "illegitimate". Lots of losers of elections have done so, that is an irrelevancy.
Many of Trump's base would back him on that claim, again irrelevant and commonplace.
I think there is no plausible path forward for Trump to use violence to stay in office.
and no, I will not attempt to establish that it is "impossible". "Impossible" is not necessary for something to not be a "legitimate concern", especially when the "legitimate concern" is fun to say out loud to drive home the point that orange man bad."
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@jon-nyc said in State of the art progressive thought re: Trump refusing to leave office:
@Horace said in State of the art progressive thought re: Trump refusing to leave office:
Trump is liable to call a loss "illegitimate". Lots of losers of elections have done so, that is an irrelevancy.
Many of Trump's base would back him on that claim, again irrelevant and commonplace.
I think there is no plausible path forward for Trump to use violence to stay in office.
and no, I will not attempt to establish that it is "impossible". "Impossible" is not necessary for something to not be a "legitimate concern", especially when the "legitimate concern" is fun to say out loud to drive home the point that orange man bad.
You conceded my first two concerns then skipped the rest, ending on a nice straw man. Perhaps it wasn't intentional, want to try again?
What straw man? Was it a straw man when I rephrased "couldn't happen" as "impossible"? Serious question, I am fascinated by your ability to see straw men where they do not exist.
Your other points were about Trump using violence to stay in office, I claimed that they were implausible. Your accusation that I skipped them is convenient but inaccurate.
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2016:
"Mr. Trump, if you lose the election will you accept the results?"
Trump: "Yes, of course. And if you lose, will you accept the results?"
Hillary:"hahahahaHillary loses:
Hillary "I won the popular vote. I refuse to accept the results!"
Democrat party: "We refuse to accept the results!"
Democrat part: launches a coup, spends 3 years and tens of millions of dollars engaging in sedition.
Hilkary:" I won! I won!"
Democrat party: "let's get rid of the electoral college!"
Democrat party : "destroy Kavanaugh! Destroy everyone Trump nominates! Destroy! Destroy!!!"
Hillary "it's Corey's fault I lost. It's everyone's fault I lost. It's your fault I lost. It's... "2020:
Democrat party: "if Trump loses the election, will he accept the results?"Bahahahahaaaa
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I wonder if jon would consider it a "legitimate concern" that people in the white house might actively subvert the intentions of the president going forward, and whether that would be a "constitutional crisis". I wonder if he considers it a "legitimate concern" that police could get defunded because racism. The first thing has already happened and been accepted as a good thing as long as the president is sufficiently orange and bad. The second thing is being openly discussed by mainstream progressive voices.
