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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Taking On The Mouse

Taking On The Mouse

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved General Discussion
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  • J jon-nyc
    25 Apr 2022, 12:31

    Mask mandates are a social issue.

    If the Biden administration punished companies for taking a vocal stance against them that would be legitimate in your mind?

    J Offline
    J Offline
    Jolly
    wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 14:42 last edited by
    #89

    @jon-nyc said in Taking On The Mouse:

    Mask mandates are a social issue.

    If the Biden administration punished companies for taking a vocal stance against them that would be legitimate in your mind?

    Good question, but mask mandates are also a workplace and productivity issue. That's a corporate issue, especially in healthcare.

    “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

    Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

    J 1 Reply Last reply 25 Apr 2022, 18:20
    • H Online
      H Online
      Horace
      wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 14:49 last edited by
      #90

      Has the language of “punishment” been conceded? Cessation of special privileges of debatable and impermanent social value is not necessarily “punishment” for the purposes of this discussion. It’s not as if Disney’s decision makers are being arrested.

      Education is extremely important.

      J 1 Reply Last reply 25 Apr 2022, 18:23
      • C Offline
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        Copper
        wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 16:10 last edited by
        #91

        Elections have consequences.

        Ask those people that were intimidated by Mr. Obama's IRS.

        Some people thought that was over the line. It probably was, but a lot of people thought it was heroic.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • J Jolly
          24 Apr 2022, 11:55

          @jon-nyc said in Taking On The Mouse:

          @LuFins-Dad

          Yes it’s taking away a privilege but it’s being done as a punishment obviously. As a parent you are surely familiar with taking away a privilege as punishment.

          None of the principled reasons to remove the privilege occurred to these guys before the Ed bill. In fact these very same clowns just wrote a new and rather substantial Disney privilege into law a just a few months ago. (Tech reg bill applies to all social media companies ‘unless owned by a company that operates a large amusement park in the state’).

          Do you not understand politics or are you being intentionally obtuse because corporate America got gored for coloring outside of the lines?

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          Ivorythumper
          wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 17:07 last edited by
          #92

          Do you not understand politics or are you being intentionally obtuse because corporate America got gored for coloring outside of the lines?

          Coloring outside the lines sounds like acting beyond their corporate charter...

          1 Reply Last reply
          • J jon-nyc
            25 Apr 2022, 09:56

            Driving on public roads is a privilege. Maybe they can take licenses away from every Disney employee who publicly opposed the bill.

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            Ivorythumper
            wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 17:08 last edited by
            #93

            @jon-nyc said in Taking On The Mouse:

            Driving on public roads is a privilege. Maybe they can take licenses away from every Disney employee who publicly opposed the bill.

            No, driving on public roads is not a privilege. It is a necessary condition for the commonweal.

            J 1 Reply Last reply 25 Apr 2022, 18:34
            • J Jolly
              25 Apr 2022, 14:42

              @jon-nyc said in Taking On The Mouse:

              Mask mandates are a social issue.

              If the Biden administration punished companies for taking a vocal stance against them that would be legitimate in your mind?

              Good question, but mask mandates are also a workplace and productivity issue. That's a corporate issue, especially in healthcare.

              J Offline
              J Offline
              jon-nyc
              wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 18:20 last edited by
              #94

              @Jolly said in Taking On The Mouse:

              @jon-nyc said in Taking On The Mouse:

              Mask mandates are a social issue.

              If the Biden administration punished companies for taking a vocal stance against them that would be legitimate in your mind?

              Good question, but mask mandates are also a workplace and productivity issue. That's a corporate issue, especially in healthcare.

              Recruiting is a corporate issue too.

              Social issues affect us in the workplace as well as the home.

              Thank you for your attention to this matter.

              J 1 Reply Last reply 25 Apr 2022, 21:28
              • H Horace
                25 Apr 2022, 14:49

                Has the language of “punishment” been conceded? Cessation of special privileges of debatable and impermanent social value is not necessarily “punishment” for the purposes of this discussion. It’s not as if Disney’s decision makers are being arrested.

                J Offline
                J Offline
                jon-nyc
                wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 18:23 last edited by jon-nyc
                #95

                @Horace said in Taking On The Mouse:

                Has the language of “punishment” been conceded?

                By DeSantis himself in his fundraising emails.

                But it would anyway be obvious to any honest observer. Remember these very same clowns granted Disney yet another big carve-out (with no corresponding state development benefit) literally a single digit number of months ago.

                Thank you for your attention to this matter.

                H 1 Reply Last reply 25 Apr 2022, 19:11
                • I Ivorythumper
                  25 Apr 2022, 17:08

                  @jon-nyc said in Taking On The Mouse:

                  Driving on public roads is a privilege. Maybe they can take licenses away from every Disney employee who publicly opposed the bill.

                  No, driving on public roads is not a privilege. It is a necessary condition for the commonweal.

                  J Offline
                  J Offline
                  jon-nyc
                  wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 18:34 last edited by
                  #96

                  @Ivorythumper said in Taking On The Mouse:

                  @jon-nyc said in Taking On The Mouse:

                  Driving on public roads is a privilege. Maybe they can take licenses away from every Disney employee who publicly opposed the bill.

                  No, driving on public roads is not a privilege. It is a necessary condition for the commonweal.

                  Maybe you’re making a normative statement not a positive one? But as a point of law you are incorrect.

                  (It has real world ramifications, for example the legal standard the state must meet to revoke the privilege)

                  Thank you for your attention to this matter.

                  I 1 Reply Last reply 25 Apr 2022, 19:01
                  • J jon-nyc
                    25 Apr 2022, 18:34

                    @Ivorythumper said in Taking On The Mouse:

                    @jon-nyc said in Taking On The Mouse:

                    Driving on public roads is a privilege. Maybe they can take licenses away from every Disney employee who publicly opposed the bill.

                    No, driving on public roads is not a privilege. It is a necessary condition for the commonweal.

                    Maybe you’re making a normative statement not a positive one? But as a point of law you are incorrect.

                    (It has real world ramifications, for example the legal standard the state must meet to revoke the privilege)

                    I Offline
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                    Ivorythumper
                    wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 19:01 last edited by
                    #97

                    @jon-nyc said in Taking On The Mouse:

                    @Ivorythumper said in Taking On The Mouse:

                    @jon-nyc said in Taking On The Mouse:

                    Driving on public roads is a privilege. Maybe they can take licenses away from every Disney employee who publicly opposed the bill.

                    No, driving on public roads is not a privilege. It is a necessary condition for the commonweal.

                    Maybe you’re making a normative statement not a positive one? But as a point of law you are incorrect.

                    (It has real world ramifications, for example the legal standard the state must meet to revoke the privilege)

                    The fact that the State must act with due process to deprive someone of the right to drive on public roads tells us it is not a privilege. One has a natural right to access to all the goods of a society -- this is not privilege.

                    By your legal compass, walking freely on the sidewalk is also a privilege.

                    A driver's license is not a privilege, it readily must be given to anyone who demonstrates a basic competency and provides proof of legal and financial responsibility to protect the public and other private parties against financial harm. That the State enacts some regulation for the common good does not make it a privilege any more than a marriage license creates a privilege to marry, as distinct from ordering a natural right toward the common good.

                    C 1 Reply Last reply 25 Apr 2022, 21:52
                    • J jon-nyc
                      25 Apr 2022, 18:23

                      @Horace said in Taking On The Mouse:

                      Has the language of “punishment” been conceded?

                      By DeSantis himself in his fundraising emails.

                      But it would anyway be obvious to any honest observer. Remember these very same clowns granted Disney yet another big carve-out (with no corresponding state development benefit) literally a single digit number of months ago.

                      H Online
                      H Online
                      Horace
                      wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 19:11 last edited by
                      #98

                      @jon-nyc said in Taking On The Mouse:

                      @Horace said in Taking On The Mouse:

                      Has the language of “punishment” been conceded?

                      By DeSantis himself in his fundraising emails.

                      So it served him to use that word at that time to that audience. Rile them and their support up, that makes sense.

                      But it would anyway be obvious to any honest observer.

                      What's obvious is that words have rhetorical value to serve an agenda. Just as the word now has rhetorical value to you and your framing.

                      Remember these very same clowns granted Disney yet another big carve-out (with no corresponding state development benefit) literally a single digit number of months ago.

                      So these "clowns" granted a carve-out with no public benefit, but from your perspective, a reversal of such would be unfair punishment. What if the carve-out wasn't just or for the public good to begin with? At that point, you're hand-wringing about motivations for doing a good thing. I suspect there is room for some hand-wringing about the motivations for granting the carve-out, but that is not the hand-wringing that serves your agenda.

                      Education is extremely important.

                      1 Reply Last reply
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                        jon-nyc
                        wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 19:19 last edited by
                        #99

                        This doesn’t seem very hard, Horace.

                        If they approached this, say, last year and said “these privileges we granted Disney (and something like 1000 other entities) don’t make sense, let’s revoke them” that would be fine and I’d cheer them on.

                        When they take them away explicitly to retaliate for their having exercised their first amendment rights, that’s a problem and none of us should think that’s a good precedent no matter how much we love or hate Disney or DeSantis or teaching fisting in kindergarten.

                        Thank you for your attention to this matter.

                        H 1 Reply Last reply 25 Apr 2022, 19:23
                        • J jon-nyc
                          25 Apr 2022, 19:19

                          This doesn’t seem very hard, Horace.

                          If they approached this, say, last year and said “these privileges we granted Disney (and something like 1000 other entities) don’t make sense, let’s revoke them” that would be fine and I’d cheer them on.

                          When they take them away explicitly to retaliate for their having exercised their first amendment rights, that’s a problem and none of us should think that’s a good precedent no matter how much we love or hate Disney or DeSantis or teaching fisting in kindergarten.

                          H Online
                          H Online
                          Horace
                          wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 19:23 last edited by
                          #100

                          @jon-nyc said in Taking On The Mouse:

                          This doesn’t seem very hard, Horace.

                          If they approached this, say, last year and said “these privileges we granted Disney (and something like 1000 other entities) don’t make sense, let’s revoke them” that would be fine and I’d cheer them on.

                          When they take them away explicitly to retaliate for their having exercised their first amendment rights, that’s a problem and none of us should think that’s a good precedent no matter how much we love or hate Disney or DeSantis or teaching fisting in kindergarten.

                          You accept the existence of politics and its realities when you accept, without hand-wringing, the special favors done by the government for Disney. Your hand-wringing is only special pleading. These special favors are fair game for retaliatory reversals, exactly to the extent they were fair game to be granted to begin with.

                          Education is extremely important.

                          1 Reply Last reply
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                            jon-nyc
                            wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 19:33 last edited by jon-nyc
                            #101

                            I have never liked the special carve outs and special deals. It’s the difference between market capitalisms and crony capitalism.

                            I would love for them the bust the sugar cartel that benefits I think five families in the US (which fund Rubio by the way). I would love to end carried interest exemption to capital gains for hedge funds and private equity. I would love to end the ethanol absurdity. I would love to end the oil depletion allowance.

                            But motives matter. We should end them because they’re fundamentally corrupt and harm consumers and/or taxpayers. I don’t want one of them ended because the particular interest group opposed the administration on some piece of legislation.

                            Thank you for your attention to this matter.

                            H 1 Reply Last reply 25 Apr 2022, 19:48
                            • J jon-nyc
                              25 Apr 2022, 19:33

                              I have never liked the special carve outs and special deals. It’s the difference between market capitalisms and crony capitalism.

                              I would love for them the bust the sugar cartel that benefits I think five families in the US (which fund Rubio by the way). I would love to end carried interest exemption to capital gains for hedge funds and private equity. I would love to end the ethanol absurdity. I would love to end the oil depletion allowance.

                              But motives matter. We should end them because they’re fundamentally corrupt and harm consumers and/or taxpayers. I don’t want one of them ended because the particular interest group opposed the administration on some piece of legislation.

                              H Online
                              H Online
                              Horace
                              wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 19:48 last edited by Horace
                              #102

                              @jon-nyc said in Taking On The Mouse:

                              I have never liked the special carve outs and special deals. It’s the difference between market capitalisms and crony capitalism.

                              I would love for them the bust the sugar cartel that benefits I think five families in the US (which fund Rubio by the way). I would love to end carried interest exemption to capital gains for hedge funds and private equity. I would love to end the ethanol absurdity. I would love to end the oil depletion allowance.

                              But motives matter. We should end them because they’re fundamentally corrupt and harm consumers and/or taxpayers. I don’t want one of them ended because the particular interest group opposed the administration on some piece of legislation.

                              And meanwhile the rest of us won’t hand wring about the horrible precedent set, when the real precedent was set by the existence of the favors to begin with. There is no evidence of a lack of principles if people observe that long standing political and cultural realities happen to fall their way once in a while.

                              Education is extremely important.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • J Offline
                                J Offline
                                jon-nyc
                                wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 20:04 last edited by
                                #103

                                Rewarding friends and punishing enemies are not really the same thing. One is far more insidious.

                                Thank you for your attention to this matter.

                                H I 2 Replies Last reply 25 Apr 2022, 20:07
                                • J jon-nyc
                                  25 Apr 2022, 20:04

                                  Rewarding friends and punishing enemies are not really the same thing. One is far more insidious.

                                  H Online
                                  H Online
                                  Horace
                                  wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 20:07 last edited by
                                  #104

                                  @jon-nyc said in Taking On The Mouse:

                                  Rewarding friends and punishing enemies are not really the same thing. One is far more insidious.

                                  This was a public and transparent move to reward desantis supporters. It’s how politics is supposed to work, more so than less transparent sweetheart deals that reward far fewer people in more insidious ways.

                                  Education is extremely important.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • J jon-nyc
                                    25 Apr 2022, 20:04

                                    Rewarding friends and punishing enemies are not really the same thing. One is far more insidious.

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                                    Ivorythumper
                                    wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 20:08 last edited by
                                    #105

                                    @jon-nyc said in Taking On The Mouse:

                                    Rewarding friends and punishing enemies are not really the same thing. One is far more insidious.

                                    Yes. Rewarding friends is far more insidious as it takes a public good and privatizes it. Punishing enemies is only a private harm.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • J Offline
                                      J Offline
                                      jon-nyc
                                      wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 20:10 last edited by jon-nyc
                                      #106

                                      You should think this through at some point when the stakes of the debating point de jour are behind us.

                                      As much it seems unfair that cops let their friends off for various offenses, if the local department had it out for me and decided to make me their target it would thousands of times worse.

                                      Thank you for your attention to this matter.

                                      I H 2 Replies Last reply 25 Apr 2022, 20:19
                                      • J jon-nyc
                                        25 Apr 2022, 20:10

                                        You should think this through at some point when the stakes of the debating point de jour are behind us.

                                        As much it seems unfair that cops let their friends off for various offenses, if the local department had it out for me and decided to make me their target it would thousands of times worse.

                                        I Offline
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                                        Ivorythumper
                                        wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 20:19 last edited by
                                        #107

                                        @jon-nyc said in Taking On The Mouse:

                                        You should think this through at some point when the stakes of the debating point de jour are behind us.

                                        As much it seems unfair that cops let their friends off for various offenses, if the local department had it out for me and decided to make me their target it would thousands of times worse.

                                        Rewarding friends was your term, not giving them a pass.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • J jon-nyc
                                          25 Apr 2022, 20:10

                                          You should think this through at some point when the stakes of the debating point de jour are behind us.

                                          As much it seems unfair that cops let their friends off for various offenses, if the local department had it out for me and decided to make me their target it would thousands of times worse.

                                          H Online
                                          H Online
                                          Horace
                                          wrote on 25 Apr 2022, 20:21 last edited by
                                          #108

                                          @jon-nyc said in Taking On The Mouse:

                                          You should think this through at some point when the stakes of the debating point de jour are behind us.

                                          I would recommend you re-think this when your conceit of always being the most objective person in the room has passed, but let's not hold our breath.

                                          As much it seems unfair that cops let their friends off for various offenses, if the local department had it out for me and decided to make me their target it would thousands of times worse.

                                          A much better analogy would be when cop no longer let a friend off for speeding tickets, after that person pissed the cop off for some personal reason. That would be accepted as normal, no hand wringing necessary.

                                          Education is extremely important.

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