Pick A Better Martyr
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@George-K said in Pick A Better Martyr:
@George-K said in Pick A Better Martyr:
The autopsy (which has been scrubbed from SCRIBD, by the way):
Found the entire report:
@Jolly , you're much more versed than I am on the specifics of these blood levels and normals the I am.
Care to comment?
Interesting that he was asymptomatic to Covid given his health history.
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The blood levels of Fentanyl are over the average lethal dose, but you know more about appropriate blood levels than I do, as I understand some patients can tolerate a lot more than others.
The poikilocytosis is interesting, but since he only had the trait, there's no way the rbc's were overly compromised in their ability to carry oxygen.
The confirmation of morphine in the urine is also interesting. I know that heroin can metabolize down to morphine at that point, and I may be wrong, but I think mass spec confirmation would pick up the difference between Fentanyl and other opiod-type drugs.
Postmortem meth levels are usually around about one and a half times less than antemortem. If that's the case, he's got enough meth in him to be off his gourd.
Floyd kept complaining of not being able to breathe, but the post shows no trauma which would have caused him to die. I'm no doc, but cause off death to me would be an overdose.
Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion. -
And none of that changes the fact that the officer refused to let go of his hold and call for an ambulance for 4 minutes after Floyd had lost consciousness.
Me/rry/Christmas
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@LuFins-Dad said in Pick A Better Martyr:
And none of that changes the fact that the officer refused to let go of his hold and call for an ambulance for 4 minutes after Floyd had lost consciousness.
Makes a big difference legally.
Big difference.
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(moved from the "Kenosha shootings" thread:
@jon-nyc said in Kenosha Shootings:
I'm sure it will be litigated.
Read the copy of the autopsy George posted...
https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/drug-profiles/fentanyl_enOverdose results in respiratory depression which is reversible with naloxone. Sudden death can also occur because of cardiac arrest or severe anaphylactic reaction. The estimated lethal dose of fentanyl in humans is 2 mg. The recommended serum concentration for analgesia is 1–2 ng/ml and for anaesthesia it is 10–20 ng/ml. Blood concentrations of approximately 7 ng/ml or greater have been associated with fatalities where poly-substance use was involved.
For the record, routinely I'd administer 2 mg of fentanyl to induce anesthesia for heart surgery. A patient not breathing doesn't scare me, it was to be expected, and I knew how to deal with it. It was part of the plan.
This article says that "anesthetic levels" are 10-20 ng/ml. Read the path report I posted. If that's what they found post-mortem, it's not unreasonable to expect that it was higher before the specimen was obtained. I'm no expert on the pharmacokinetics of fentanyl, but if that was obtained an hour after his apprehension, I'm willing to guess that it was substantially higher when the episode started.
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@Loki said in Pick A Better Martyr:
Interesting that he was asymptomatic to Covid given his health history.
I think you misunderstood it. The autopsy says the diagnosis predated the death by long enough for the disease to have run its clinical course and that RNA can stick around longer. They’re not claiming he had always been asymptomatic.
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An interview with the CME who talks about the levels of drugs in Floyd:
https://spectator.org/minnesota-v-derek-chauvin-et-al-the-prosecutions-dirty-little-secret/
Dr. Baker, the chief medical examiner, had to concede that at 11 ng/mL, Floyd had “a fatal level of fentanyl under normal circumstances.” He also conceded that the fentanyl overdose “can cause pulmonary edema,” a frothy fluid build-up in the lungs that was evidenced by the finding at autopsy that Floyd’s lungs weighed two to three times normal weight.
This is consistent with Officer Kueng’s observation at the scene that Floyd was foaming at the mouth and, as found at autopsy, that his lungs were “diffusely congested and edematous.”
In other words, like a drowned man, Floyd’s lungs were filled with fluid. And that was the obvious and inescapable reason why Floyd kept shouting over and over again that he couldn’t breathe even when he was upright and mobile.
The memorandum ends with Dr. Baker’s devastating conclusion that “if Floyd had been found dead in his home (or anywhere else) and there were no other contributing factors he [Dr. Baker] would conclude that it was an overdose death.”
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In other words, like "Hands up, don't shoot," and "Good people on both sides," this will go down as a rallying cry with no basis in fact.
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@jolly said in Pick A Better Martyr:
The blood levels of Fentanyl are over the average lethal dose
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/08/us/george-floyd-fentanyl-toxicologist.html
Maybe not.
Here's what I never understood about the "lethal level" argument: A lethal level of fentanyl is, well, "lethal." How is it that he was (ahem) alive with that level of fentanyl in his blood.
Also, fentanyl, and all narcotics, cause death by suppression of the respiratory center's response to CO2. They cause unconsciousness, not aggressiveness. They stop breathing - simple as that.
That's not the case here.
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I've been pretty agnostic on the Floyd case so far. I have little doubt that the cop will be convicted, because the jury won't want Minneapolis (and other cities) to burn.
I just find it interesting how, under the rules of the court, so much of what we read in the press, is shown to be not the case.
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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Ultimately, there is one inescapable and indisputable fact...Floyd was unconscious and unmoving for several minutes before Chauvin got up, and it was still more time before medical assistance was called. Even if it was an overdose, Chauvin and his delay in calling an ambulance played a significant and criminal part of Floyd’s death.
I think Manslaughter at a minimum and probably Murder 3...
Me/rry/Christmas
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@lufins-dad said in Pick A Better Martyr:
Chauvin and his delay in calling an ambulance played a significant and criminal part of Floyd’s death.
I think Manslaughter at a minimum and probably Murder 3...Agreed.
The expert today testified that, even if the "knee on the neck" narrative was wrong (and it is), the fact that Chauvin sat on Floyd's back impaired his ability to breathe.
Imagine a 180 lb man putting most of his weight on the back of your chest. How well do you think you'd breathe?
