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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
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  3. Meanwhile in Germany...

Meanwhile in Germany...

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  • JollyJ Offline
    JollyJ Offline
    Jolly
    wrote on last edited by
    #3

    I am somewhat sympathetic...We've neglected (We, as in NATO) to keep some assembly lines running and certain weapons stockpiled. Now, with the chip shortage and the nature of weapons such as the Javelin, how fast can a country's stockpile be replaced?

    What would really make me think, though, is what if a country was using these weapons in their own defense? In that case, maybe the stockpile was not enough to begin with...

    “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

    Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

    1 Reply Last reply
    • AxtremusA Away
      AxtremusA Away
      Axtremus
      wrote on last edited by
      #4

      Whether Germany’s defensive stockpile is “enough” depends on whether who/what attempts to invade it, and how much stock it puts in the US’ security guarantee. Some assumptions had to be made in those regards. Now we are just retroactively arguing over whether those assumptions were correct.

      JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
      • AxtremusA Axtremus

        Whether Germany’s defensive stockpile is “enough” depends on whether who/what attempts to invade it, and how much stock it puts in the US’ security guarantee. Some assumptions had to be made in those regards. Now we are just retroactively arguing over whether those assumptions were correct.

        JollyJ Offline
        JollyJ Offline
        Jolly
        wrote on last edited by
        #5

        @Axtremus said in Meanwhile in Germany...:

        Whether Germany’s defensive stockpile is “enough” depends on whether who/what attempts to invade it, and how much stock it puts in the US’ security guarantee. Some assumptions had to be made in those regards. Now we are just retroactively arguing over whether those assumptions were correct.

        Fulda Gap, baby....

        “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

        Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

        1 Reply Last reply
        • JollyJ Jolly

          Tapped out...

          https://www.dw.com/en/germany-bundeswehr-arms-deliveries-to-ukraine-reached-a-limit/a-61418152

          KlausK Offline
          KlausK Offline
          Klaus
          wrote on last edited by Klaus
          #6

          @Jolly said in Meanwhile in Germany...:

          Tapped out...

          https://www.dw.com/en/germany-bundeswehr-arms-deliveries-to-ukraine-reached-a-limit/a-61418152

          The "reached a limit" thing is a convenient lie.

          We have ample things that we could give to the Ukraine right now, such as 100 Marder tanks the Ukraine requested. The weapons vendors have already made offers to resupply very quickly. Recently it has come to light that we also have around 100 older Leopard tanks that are not in active duty that could be given to the Ukraine very quickly.

          The sad truth is that they don't want to give more weapons to the Ukraine (apart from the old GDR rubbish we conveniently disposed that way). They are trying to formulate it with lies such as this one, or they try to create a fog of "this is all secret so we can't say anything". But we could do much more to help the Ukraine. Instead, we talk about mandatory COVID vaccinations all day, or about solar panels and stuff - and look in a different direction.

          I'm angry. It's pathetic. We would deserve to be attacked and nobody else gives a damn about it.

          HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
          • KlausK Klaus

            @Jolly said in Meanwhile in Germany...:

            Tapped out...

            https://www.dw.com/en/germany-bundeswehr-arms-deliveries-to-ukraine-reached-a-limit/a-61418152

            The "reached a limit" thing is a convenient lie.

            We have ample things that we could give to the Ukraine right now, such as 100 Marder tanks the Ukraine requested. The weapons vendors have already made offers to resupply very quickly. Recently it has come to light that we also have around 100 older Leopard tanks that are not in active duty that could be given to the Ukraine very quickly.

            The sad truth is that they don't want to give more weapons to the Ukraine (apart from the old GDR rubbish we conveniently disposed that way). They are trying to formulate it with lies such as this one, or they try to create a fog of "this is all secret so we can't say anything". But we could do much more to help the Ukraine. Instead, we talk about mandatory COVID vaccinations all day, or about solar panels and stuff - and look in a different direction.

            I'm angry. It's pathetic. We would deserve to be attacked and nobody else gives a damn about it.

            HoraceH Online
            HoraceH Online
            Horace
            wrote on last edited by Horace
            #7

            @Klaus said in Meanwhile in Germany...:

            @Jolly said in Meanwhile in Germany...:

            Tapped out...

            https://www.dw.com/en/germany-bundeswehr-arms-deliveries-to-ukraine-reached-a-limit/a-61418152

            The "reached a limit" thing is a convenient lie.

            We have ample things that we could give to the Ukraine right now, such as 100 Marder tanks the Ukraine requested. The weapons vendors have already made offers to resupply very quickly. Recently it has come to light that we also have around 100 older Leopard tanks that are not in active duty that could be given to the Ukraine very quickly.

            The sad truth is that they don't want to give more weapons to the Ukraine (apart from the old GDR rubbish we conveniently disposed that way). They are trying to formulate it with lies such as this one, or they try to create a fog of "this is all secret so we can't say anything". But we could do much more to help the Ukraine. Instead, we talk about mandatory COVID vaccinations all day, or about solar panels and stuff - and look in a different direction.

            I'm angry. It's pathetic. We would deserve to be attacked and nobody else gives a damn about it.

            Klaus, in your opinion, is that attitude that angers you aligned with the messaging of "main stream media" in Germany?

            Education is extremely important.

            KlausK 1 Reply Last reply
            • HoraceH Horace

              @Klaus said in Meanwhile in Germany...:

              @Jolly said in Meanwhile in Germany...:

              Tapped out...

              https://www.dw.com/en/germany-bundeswehr-arms-deliveries-to-ukraine-reached-a-limit/a-61418152

              The "reached a limit" thing is a convenient lie.

              We have ample things that we could give to the Ukraine right now, such as 100 Marder tanks the Ukraine requested. The weapons vendors have already made offers to resupply very quickly. Recently it has come to light that we also have around 100 older Leopard tanks that are not in active duty that could be given to the Ukraine very quickly.

              The sad truth is that they don't want to give more weapons to the Ukraine (apart from the old GDR rubbish we conveniently disposed that way). They are trying to formulate it with lies such as this one, or they try to create a fog of "this is all secret so we can't say anything". But we could do much more to help the Ukraine. Instead, we talk about mandatory COVID vaccinations all day, or about solar panels and stuff - and look in a different direction.

              I'm angry. It's pathetic. We would deserve to be attacked and nobody else gives a damn about it.

              Klaus, in your opinion, is that attitude that angers you aligned with the messaging of "main stream media" in Germany?

              KlausK Offline
              KlausK Offline
              Klaus
              wrote on last edited by
              #8

              @Horace said in Meanwhile in Germany...:

              Klaus, in your opinion, is that attitude that angers you aligned with the messaging of "main stream media" in Germany?

              It's not so simple. The discussions are not along the usual party lines.

              The two most "extreme" parties of relevance, the Left Party and the AfD, are in a strange alliance in that many of them are "Putin Versteher" - people who can "understand" Putin, who think we angered Putin too much by extending NATO, who always form sentence of the form "What Russia does isn't good BUT ...".

              Then there's a very large percentage of the population who are scared of WW3 and don't want us to be involved in this war at all.

              Media-wise, the situation isn't as one-sided as in other issues (e.g. it was pretty one-sided with regard to COVID stuff). There's one major news organization, Springer, that I'd classify on the "Let's help Ukraine more" side and is rather critical of the government. The rest of the media, including the publicly funded ones, are more supportive of the government.

              1 Reply Last reply
              • KlausK Offline
                KlausK Offline
                Klaus
                wrote on last edited by Klaus
                #9

                Apparently we have now reluctantly agreed to deliver Gepard tanks.

                https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-26/germany-to-send-50-gepard-anti-aircraft-tanks-to-ukraine

                Which is, from what I understand, just stupid from a military perspective.

                The tanks themselves are quite powerful, but apparently they are among the most complicated pieces of tech ever. High maintenance. Takes many months of training to operate.

                The Marder tanks the Ukraine requested would have been much more helpful.

                1 Reply Last reply
                • JollyJ Offline
                  JollyJ Offline
                  Jolly
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #10

                  In short, German engineering. 😄

                  “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                  Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • KlausK Offline
                    KlausK Offline
                    Klaus
                    wrote on last edited by Klaus
                    #11

                    OK, finally some transparency. There's now a list of what we have delivered to Ukraine, and what we plan to deliver.

                    https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/themen/krieg-in-der-ukraine/lieferungen-ukraine-2054514

                    Delivered so far:

                    3.000 Patronen „Panzerfaust 3“ zuzüglich 900 Griffstücke
                    14.900 Panzerabwehrminen
                    500 Fliegerabwehrraketen STINGER
                    2.700 Fliegerfäuste STRELA
                    16 Millionen Schuss Handwaffenmunition
                    50 Bunkerfäuste
                    100 Maschinengewehre MG 3 mit 500 Ersatzrohren und Verschlüssen
                    100.000 Handgranaten
                    5.300 Sprengladungen
                    100.000 Meter Sprengschnur und 100.000 Sprengkapseln
                    350.000 Zünder
                    23.000 Gefechtshelme
                    15 Paletten Bekleidung
                    178 Kraftfahrzeuge (Lkw, Kleinbusse, Geländewagen)
                    100 Zelte
                    12 Stromerzeuger
                    6 Paletten Material für Kampfmittelbeseitigung
                    125 Doppelfernrohre
                    1.200 Krankenhausbetten
                    18 Paletten Sanitätsmaterial, 60 OP-Leuchten
                    Schutzbekleidung, OP-Masken
                    10.000 Schlafsäcke
                    600 Schießbrillen
                    1 Radiofrequenzsystem
                    3.000 Feldfernsprecher mit 5.000 Rollen Feldkabel und Trageausstattung
                    1 Feldlazarett (gemeinsames Projekt mit Estland)
                    353 Nachtsichtbrillen
                    4 elektronische Drohnenabwehrgeräte
                    165 Ferngläser
                    Sanitätsmaterial (unter anderem Rucksäcke, Verbandspäckchen)
                    38 Laserentfernungsmesser
                    Kraftstoff Diesel und Benzin (laufende Lieferung)
                    10 Tonnen AdBlue
                    500 Stück Wundauflagen zur Blutstillung
                    500 Stück Verpflegungsrationen
                    Lebensmittel: 2.025 Paletten (68 Lkw-Ladungen) mit 360.000 Rationen Einpersonenpackungen (EPa)
                    MiG-29 Ersatzteile
                    30 sondergeschützte Fahrzeuge

                    At least it looks a little better than what I thought. Now they need to rush to get the heavy-duty stuff delivered.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • MikM Away
                      MikM Away
                      Mik
                      wrote on last edited by Mik
                      #12

                      @Klaus said in Meanwhile in Germany...:

                      3.000 Patronen „Panzerfaust 3“ zuzüglich 900 Griffstücke
                      14.900 Panzerabwehrminen
                      500 Fliegerabwehrraketen STINGER
                      2.700 Fliegerfäuste STRELA
                      16 Millionen Schuss Handwaffenmunition
                      50 Bunkerfäuste
                      100 Maschinengewehre MG 3 mit 500 Ersatzrohren und Verschlüssen
                      100.000 Handgranaten
                      5.300 Sprengladungen
                      100.000 Meter Sprengschnur und 100.000 Sprengkapseln
                      350.000 Zünder
                      23.000 Gefechtshelme
                      15 Paletten Bekleidung
                      178 Kraftfahrzeuge (Lkw, Kleinbusse, Geländewagen)
                      100 Zelte
                      12 Stromerzeuger
                      6 Paletten Material für Kampfmittelbeseitigung
                      125 Doppelfernrohre
                      1.200 Krankenhausbetten
                      18 Paletten Sanitätsmaterial, 60 OP-Leuchten
                      Schutzbekleidung, OP-Masken
                      10.000 Schlafsäcke
                      600 Schießbrillen
                      1 Radiofrequenzsystem
                      3.000 Feldfernsprecher mit 5.000 Rollen Feldkabel und Trageausstattung
                      1 Feldlazarett (gemeinsames Projekt mit Estland)
                      353 Nachtsichtbrillen
                      4 elektronische Drohnenabwehrgeräte
                      165 Ferngläser
                      Sanitätsmaterial (unter anderem Rucksäcke, Verbandspäckchen)
                      38 Laserentfernungsmesser
                      Kraftstoff Diesel und Benzin (laufende Lieferung)
                      10 Tonnen AdBlue
                      500 Stück Wundauflagen zur Blutstillung
                      500 Stück Verpflegungsrationen
                      Lebensmittel: 2.025 Paletten (68 Lkw-Ladungen) mit 360.000 Rationen Einpersonenpackungen (EPa)
                      MiG-29 Ersatzteile
                      30 sondergeschützte Fahrzeuge

                      Meanwhile, in English:
                      3,000 Panzerfaust 3 cartridges plus 900 grips
                      14,900 anti-tank mines
                      500 STINGER anti-aircraft missiles
                      2,700 STRELA flying fists
                      16 million rounds of handgun ammunition
                      50 bunker fists
                      100 MG 3 machine guns with 500 spare barrels and bolts
                      100,000 hand grenades
                      5,300 explosive charges
                      100,000 meters of detonating cord and 100,000 detonators
                      350,000 detonators
                      23,000 combat helmets
                      15 pallets of clothing
                      178 motor vehicles (trucks, minibuses, SUVs)
                      100 tents
                      12 power generators
                      6 pallets of material for explosive ordnance disposal
                      125 binoculars
                      1,200 hospital beds
                      18 pallets of medical supplies, 60 surgical lights
                      protective clothing, surgical masks
                      10,000 sleeping bags
                      600 shooting glasses
                      1 radio frequency system
                      3,000 field telephones with 5,000 reels of field cord and carrying equipment
                      1 field hospital (joint project with Estonia)
                      353 night vision goggles
                      4 electronic anti-drone devices
                      165 binoculars
                      Medical supplies (including rucksacks, first-aid kits)
                      38 laser range finder
                      Fuel diesel and petrol (current delivery)
                      10 tons of AdBlue
                      500 pieces of wound dressings to stop bleeding
                      500 pieces of food rations
                      Food: 2,025 pallets (68 truckloads) with 360,000 rations one-pack (EPa)
                      MiG-29 spare parts
                      30 armored vehicles

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • MikM Away
                        MikM Away
                        Mik
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #13
                        This post is deleted!
                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • KlausK Offline
                          KlausK Offline
                          Klaus
                          wrote on last edited by Klaus
                          #14

                          First PzH2000s have also been delivered today. From what I understand, that's a quite decent and modern piece of artillery.

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