The Ukraine war thread

[Renauda]

@Jolly

Russia may, or may not, have some claims to what constitutes Ukraine. For example, the Crimea. In this current situation, some of the area the separatist groups occupy..

Crimea and the rebellious Donbas regions are really two different issues. Arguably Crimea ought to have been with dealt by Yeltsin and Kravchuk when the USSR broke up and resolved once and for all when Ukraine turned its nuclear arsenal over to Russia in 1995. Even then Russia laid claim to Crimea but was in no position to assert its claim diplomatically or otherwise. It also seems that Bill Clinton, Tony Blair and to a lesser extent Jacques Chirac were also lukewarm to any idea of changing national borders if former Soviet states as well.The result was that the issue remained to fester until Putin took unilateral action in 2014. Rightly or wrongly it will be near to impossible to dislodge Russia from that peninsula now without risking WWIII.

The Donbas on the other hand, was, until eight years ago, considered Ukrainian territory. The majority spoke Russian but nevertheless considered themselves Ukrainian citizens. The war there began eight years ago in the wake of the Maidan uprising that sent the pro Russian puppet, Viktor Yanukivuch into Russian exile. It is very much in line with Putin’s playbook of fostering rebellions in border regions of former Soviet republics in a effort to destabilise the legitimate government in those areas. The Donbas revolt is entirely aided and abetted by the Kremlin in order to reinforce Moscow’s policy that Ukraine is not and never has been a legitimate or sovereign state apart from Russia. The only real historical parallel to the problem there is Nazi policy toward the Czech Sudetenland in 1938 that led to the Munich Agreement. The big difference is that the Ukrainians, unlike the Czechs, have been actively engaged in combat against the secessionists and fight for their sovereign territory regardless of what kind of assistance they receive from third parties.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:

@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:

I was wondering how long it would take.

The Candace effect.

You know, it helps if you don't believe your own bullshit...

The same could be said of what you wrote.

[Horace]

[Jolly]

@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:

@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:

I was wondering how long it would take.

The Candace effect.

You know, it helps if you don't believe your own bullshit...

The same could be said of what you wrote.

Sorry (not actually, you're full of shit), but conservatives are not monolithic in thought or opinion.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:

@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:

I was wondering how long it would take.

The Candace effect.

You know, it helps if you don't believe your own bullshit...

The same could be said of what you wrote.

Sorry (not actually, you're full of shit), but conservatives are not monolithic in thought or opinion.

Well, your question about why we haven't got boots on the ground since it would be so easy to beat the Russians was easily the dumbest thing I've seen all day

[Jolly]

@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:

@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:

I was wondering how long it would take.

The Candace effect.

You know, it helps if you don't believe your own bullshit...

The same could be said of what you wrote.

Sorry (not actually, you're full of shit), but conservatives are not monolithic in thought or opinion.

Well, your question about why we haven't got boots on the ground since it would be so easy to beat the Russians was easily the dumbest thing I've seen all day

Stop and think. What's the difference between killing them with American hardware, letting Poland give them jets, or enforcing a no-fly zone? Those are three levels, with multiple scenarios. Care to answer the problem or just throw silly peanuts from the gallery?

[LuFins Dad]

@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:

I was wondering how long it would take.

For what to take? I'm simply making a statement that when my views closely match the general popular consensus it throws up a red flag and makes me want to step back and take another look for the facts that I am not seeing?

You can wonder if there's more to the story without being a Russian tool for disinformation...You can also wonder if there's more to the story while still generally supporting Ukraine.

[Aqua Letifer]

@LuFins-Dad said in The Ukraine war thread:

@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:

I was wondering how long it would take.

For what to take? I'm simply making a statement that when my views closely match the general popular consensus it throws up a red flag and makes me want to step back and take another look for the facts that I am not seeing?

You can wonder if there's more to the story without being a Russian tool for disinformation...You can also wonder if there's more to the story while still generally supporting Ukraine.

No one's doing that, though. No one here on this board is wondering whether or not there's more to the story because everyone is already aware of that. There's not a single person here who thinks this situation is simple to understand or that Putin just woke up one day and decided to invade Ukraine.

And I don't see anyone in the media advocating for World War III so I don't know where you're getting this "mob" talk, either.

[Renauda]

@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:

@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:

I was wondering how long it would take.

The Candace effect.

You know, it helps if you don't believe your own bullshit...

The same could be said of what you wrote.

Sorry (not actually, you're full of shit), but conservatives are not monolithic in thought or opinion.

Well, your question about why we haven't got boots on the ground since it would be so easy to beat the Russians was easily the dumbest thing I've seen all day

Stop and think. What's the difference between killing them with American hardware, letting Poland give them jets, or enforcing a no-fly zone? Those are three levels, with multiple scenarios. Care to answer the problem or just throw silly peanuts from the gallery?

There is plenty of hardware going in there and not just made in U.S.A. either. I am hoping to see more in there so long as the Ukrainians are willing to keep up the good fight. NATO has put a lot of effort in training and equipping those Ukrainian troopers for this fight. That training and equipping appears to be producing dividends.

The jets may or may not help. If Russian SAM batteries are located in Russia and Belarus, those jets probable won’t of much use. Best to keep them in their Polish hangars or sell them to Taiwan as I understand was the intention until three weeks ago.

No fly zone? Of course public opinion is leaning toward the option. However, public opinion has no clue what setting up the zone entails and knows zero about how a no fly zone is enforced.

So at this stage of the conflict I personally subscribe a hard “No” to a no fly zone for a host of good reasons not least of which would be NATO would be forced to take out SAM batteries in Russia, Belarus and aboard Russian ships in the Black Sea. Other reasons you can figure out on your own. It’s not too difficult.

However we should keep Putin uncertain about how NATO will respond as the situation develops or escalates. Russian deployment of chemical weapons could and should change our active response. So too if the there are increased Russian missile attacks or a ground force offensive into western Ukraine.

The only certainty Putin should have at this moment is that he is very alone in the world and that he is now wholly beholden to his masters in the Forbidden City.

[Mik]

In other words, he's tripped over his own dick.

[Renauda]

@Mik

You’re assuming he has one.

[Mik]

Well, he certainly is one.

[Renauda]

@Mik

[George K]

@Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Mik

Putin Khuilo!

[Jolly]

@Aqua-Letifer said in The Ukraine war thread:

@LuFins-Dad said in The Ukraine war thread:

@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:

I was wondering how long it would take.

For what to take? I'm simply making a statement that when my views closely match the general popular consensus it throws up a red flag and makes me want to step back and take another look for the facts that I am not seeing?

You can wonder if there's more to the story without being a Russian tool for disinformation...You can also wonder if there's more to the story while still generally supporting Ukraine.

No one's doing that, though. No one here on this board is wondering whether or not there's more to the story because everyone is already aware of that. There's not a single person here who thinks this situation is simple to understand or that Putin just woke up one day and decided to invade Ukraine.

And I don't see anyone in the media advocating for World War III so I don't know where you're getting this "mob" talk, either.

I see it. There is a preponderance of coverage by the MSM on the Ukraine War, with the vast majority of it being sympathetic with the Ukranians. That's okay, I'm sympathetic for their plight.

What I'm trying to point out, is whether the MSM is following the story because of classic "it bleeds, it leads" or whether the emphasis is there to craft a narrative.

Because of Russia! Russia! Russia! and the deep-sixing of the Hunter story during the final weeks of the election, I think we all have the right to question the MSM's motives on how and when they report their stories. Maybe in this case, they have a powerful story, but it still can be used like a cat covering up shit, to draw eyeballs away from the Biden Economic Fuckup.

[Aqua Letifer]

@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:

I see it.

I just checked Google news. Here are the headlines:

• Russia-Ukraine War: What Happened Today
• Ukraine's Zelenskiy presses Israel for missile defence help, fighting rages in Mariupol
• Russia says it used hypersonic missiles in Ukraine again
• First Thing: Talks between Russia and Ukraine to resume

Not a single one of those stories are advocating for World War III. Not one.

[Jolly]

Missing the bigger picture, aren't you?

[Aqua Letifer]

@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:

Missing the bigger picture, aren't you?

How it works is, if you make a claim, you have to back it up. I gave you today's news as proof no one was advocating for World War III. You countered with the They Live defense, and without any evidence.

And I'd be willing to bet that this conversation could go on for days and you'll still never quote an article and claim it's evidence that they're advocating for WWIII.

Until you do, I'm done pretending this is an actual discussion.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:

Missing the bigger picture, aren't you?

From what I've seen, the 'bigger picture' is certain people trying to make this about the US media and the USA political landscape in general.

This war isn't primarily about American domestic policies.

[Aqua Letifer]

@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:

Missing the bigger picture, aren't you?

From what I've seen, the 'bigger picture' is certain people trying to make this about the US media and the USA political landscape in general.

Well I say, this is the first I've ever heard of an American falling victim to that!