The Ukraine war thread
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Individuals are smart. Put the smart individuals in a group and they are less smart. Put the individuals in a huge group and they are idiots.
Particularly over the past 10 years, I’ve worked under the belief that the mob is wrong A LOT more often than they are right. The more passionate and sure they are in their rightness, the more wrong they typically are. I’ve also believed that the answer to most questions is not on one extreme or the other, it’s typically somewhere in the middle.
So while I have been aghast at what’s going on in Ukraine and support the full end of hostilities on Russia’s part, the more that I see EVERYBODY wholeheartedly supporting Ukraine with such passion and fervor, the more the public believes everything that Ukraine = Good and Russia = Evil, the more I want to pull back and say “Wait a minute, what’s really going on?”
What’s really going on? Listen to what Putin says and watch what he does. Read what Dr. George and Mik have posted here. Do some research beyond mainstream slick media and decide which of the two belligerents represents a clear and present danger or existential threat to political and economic stability which one of the two is a threat to NATO. Finally ask yourself whether you believe Ukraine is a fully sovereign nation.
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Individuals are smart. Put the smart individuals in a group and they are less smart. Put the individuals in a huge group and they are idiots.
Particularly over the past 10 years, I’ve worked under the belief that the mob is wrong A LOT more often than they are right. The more passionate and sure they are in their rightness, the more wrong they typically are. I’ve also believed that the answer to most questions is not on one extreme or the other, it’s typically somewhere in the middle.
So while I have been aghast at what’s going on in Ukraine and support the full end of hostilities on Russia’s part, the more that I see EVERYBODY wholeheartedly supporting Ukraine with such passion and fervor, the more the public believes everything that Ukraine = Good and Russia = Evil, the more I want to pull back and say “Wait a minute, what’s really going on?”
@LuFins-Dad said in The Ukraine war thread:
So while I have been aghast at what’s going on in Ukraine and support the full end of hostilities on Russia’s part, the more that I see EVERYBODY wholeheartedly supporting Ukraine with such passion and fervor, the more the public believes everything that Ukraine = Good and Russia = Evil, the more I want to pull back and say “Wait a minute, what’s really going on?”
You're taking that way too far in my opinion. It's not that you don't know "what's really going on," it's that mobs don't do nuance.
There are things Ukraine and the rest of the world could have done to prevent this. And we've done other things to aggravate Russia.
But the mob is still right about Russia.
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@LuFins-Dad said in The Ukraine war thread:
So while I have been aghast at what’s going on in Ukraine and support the full end of hostilities on Russia’s part, the more that I see EVERYBODY wholeheartedly supporting Ukraine with such passion and fervor, the more the public believes everything that Ukraine = Good and Russia = Evil, the more I want to pull back and say “Wait a minute, what’s really going on?”
You're taking that way too far in my opinion. It's not that you don't know "what's really going on," it's that mobs don't do nuance.
There are things Ukraine and the rest of the world could have done to prevent this. And we've done other things to aggravate Russia.
But the mob is still right about Russia.
@Aqua-Letifer said in The Ukraine war thread:
@LuFins-Dad said in The Ukraine war thread:
So while I have been aghast at what’s going on in Ukraine and support the full end of hostilities on Russia’s part, the more that I see EVERYBODY wholeheartedly supporting Ukraine with such passion and fervor, the more the public believes everything that Ukraine = Good and Russia = Evil, the more I want to pull back and say “Wait a minute, what’s really going on?”
You're taking that way too far in my opinion. It's not that you don't know "what's really going on," it's that mobs don't do nuance.
There are things Ukraine and the rest of the world could have done to prevent this. And we've done other things to aggravate Russia.
But the mob is still right about Russia.
Okay...If the mob is that right, why don't we have boots on the ground? One thing that has become glaringly obvious, is that NATO forces could light up those Russian troops in the Ukraine with very light losses.
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@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:
Okay...If the mob is that right, why don't we have boots on the ground? One thing that has become glaringly obvious, is that NATO forces could light up those Russian troops in the Ukraine with very light losses.
Are you serious? You honestly think that we "light up Russian" forces, they go home and we all go back to normal? You really think that's all there is to it?
And by the way, that idea being insane doesn't mean Russia's innocent here. That's what I mean about the mob being right. I can't believe this needs to be explained here.
Please love yourself.
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@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:
Okay...If the mob is that right, why don't we have boots on the ground? One thing that has become glaringly obvious, is that NATO forces could light up those Russian troops in the Ukraine with very light losses.
Are you serious? You honestly think that we "light up Russian" forces, they go home and we all go back to normal? You really think that's all there is to it?
And by the way, that idea being insane doesn't mean Russia's innocent here. That's what I mean about the mob being right. I can't believe this needs to be explained here.
@Aqua-Letifer said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:
Okay...If the mob is that right, why don't we have boots on the ground? One thing that has become glaringly obvious, is that NATO forces could light up those Russian troops in the Ukraine with very light losses.
Are you serious? You honestly think that we "light up Russian" forces, they go home and we all go back to normal? You really think that's all there is to it?
And by the way, that idea being insane doesn't mean Russia's innocent here. That's what I mean about the mob being right. I can't believe this needs to be explained here.
On a given day, I actually read and try to understand what Renauda writes. Russia may, or may not, have some claims to what constitutes Ukraine. For example, the Crimea. In this current situation, some of the area the separatist groups occupy.
Yes, Russia is the aggressor here. But why? Secondly, how far do we go in poking the Bear? If you follow the MSM, they are crafting public opinion and beating the war drum...The question becomes why?
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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I was wondering how long it would take.
Only non-witches get due process.
- Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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From Piano Dad next door:
The Coming Russia Terror ...
No, not what you think.
Ukrainian attitudes toward average Russians:
Ruptured for a generation. Ukrainians don't much distinguish now between average Russians and their government,
quote:
"The people we watched crawl out of the rubble today told us their relatives in Moscow didn't believe them. Videos of their destroyed home were met with 'it's a fake' or 'Nazis did it.' Every bond between Ukrainians & Russians - familial, cultural, historical - is being broken."
One wonders how long before individual Ukrainians, or organized groups, begin to launch terror attacks in Russian cities. It's so easy for them to mingle unnoticed until they strike.
“I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill
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@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:
I was wondering how long it would take.
The Candace effect.
I was only joking
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@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:
I was wondering how long it would take.
The Candace effect.
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:
I was wondering how long it would take.
The Candace effect.
You know, it helps if you don't believe your own bullshit...
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:
I was wondering how long it would take.
The Candace effect.
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:
I was wondering how long it would take.
The Candace effect.
I'm still curious what it is jon was referring to. Maybe it's analogous to blank pieces of paper that all right-thinking people should understand are bad.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:
Okay...If the mob is that right, why don't we have boots on the ground? One thing that has become glaringly obvious, is that NATO forces could light up those Russian troops in the Ukraine with very light losses.
Are you serious? You honestly think that we "light up Russian" forces, they go home and we all go back to normal? You really think that's all there is to it?
And by the way, that idea being insane doesn't mean Russia's innocent here. That's what I mean about the mob being right. I can't believe this needs to be explained here.
On a given day, I actually read and try to understand what Renauda writes. Russia may, or may not, have some claims to what constitutes Ukraine. For example, the Crimea. In this current situation, some of the area the separatist groups occupy.
Yes, Russia is the aggressor here. But why? Secondly, how far do we go in poking the Bear? If you follow the MSM, they are crafting public opinion and beating the war drum...The question becomes why?
Russia may, or may not, have some claims to what constitutes Ukraine. For example, the Crimea. In this current situation, some of the area the separatist groups occupy..
Crimea and the rebellious Donbas regions are really two different issues. Arguably Crimea ought to have been with dealt by Yeltsin and Kravchuk when the USSR broke up and resolved once and for all when Ukraine turned its nuclear arsenal over to Russia in 1995. Even then Russia laid claim to Crimea but was in no position to assert its claim diplomatically or otherwise. It also seems that Bill Clinton, Tony Blair and to a lesser extent Jacques Chirac were also lukewarm to any idea of changing national borders if former Soviet states as well.The result was that the issue remained to fester until Putin took unilateral action in 2014. Rightly or wrongly it will be near to impossible to dislodge Russia from that peninsula now without risking WWIII.
The Donbas on the other hand, was, until eight years ago, considered Ukrainian territory. The majority spoke Russian but nevertheless considered themselves Ukrainian citizens. The war there began eight years ago in the wake of the Maidan uprising that sent the pro Russian puppet, Viktor Yanukivuch into Russian exile. It is very much in line with Putin’s playbook of fostering rebellions in border regions of former Soviet republics in a effort to destabilise the legitimate government in those areas. The Donbas revolt is entirely aided and abetted by the Kremlin in order to reinforce Moscow’s policy that Ukraine is not and never has been a legitimate or sovereign state apart from Russia. The only real historical parallel to the problem there is Nazi policy toward the Czech Sudetenland in 1938 that led to the Munich Agreement. The big difference is that the Ukrainians, unlike the Czechs, have been actively engaged in combat against the secessionists and fight for their sovereign territory regardless of what kind of assistance they receive from third parties.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:
I was wondering how long it would take.
The Candace effect.
You know, it helps if you don't believe your own bullshit...
@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:
I was wondering how long it would take.
The Candace effect.
You know, it helps if you don't believe your own bullshit...
The same could be said of what you wrote.
I was only joking
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From Piano Dad next door:
The Coming Russia Terror ...
No, not what you think.
Ukrainian attitudes toward average Russians:
Ruptured for a generation. Ukrainians don't much distinguish now between average Russians and their government,
quote:
"The people we watched crawl out of the rubble today told us their relatives in Moscow didn't believe them. Videos of their destroyed home were met with 'it's a fake' or 'Nazis did it.' Every bond between Ukrainians & Russians - familial, cultural, historical - is being broken."
One wonders how long before individual Ukrainians, or organized groups, begin to launch terror attacks in Russian cities. It's so easy for them to mingle unnoticed until they strike.
@Mik said in The Ukraine war thread:
From Piano Dad next door:
The Coming Russia Terror ...
No, not what you think.
Ukrainian attitudes toward average Russians:
I suppose we all ask ourselves at some point "what sort of personality characteristics, present in contemporary society, would correlate with the personality types most susceptible to indoctrination into evil cultural attitudes"? This generally comes up when one reflects on Nazi Germany, or antebellum America. It's a great question. As far as I've been able to assemble, I wouldn't trust any further than I could throw them, those who mount the barest whispers of indignation against the idiocy of their own pop culture which they depend on for social status, while gleefully piling on with the hatred and ostracization when that same pop culture decides it's time for some righteous hatred. (I.e. TDS.)
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@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:
I was wondering how long it would take.
The Candace effect.
You know, it helps if you don't believe your own bullshit...
The same could be said of what you wrote.
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:
I was wondering how long it would take.
The Candace effect.
You know, it helps if you don't believe your own bullshit...
The same could be said of what you wrote.
Sorry (not actually, you're full of shit), but conservatives are not monolithic in thought or opinion.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:
I was wondering how long it would take.
The Candace effect.
You know, it helps if you don't believe your own bullshit...
The same could be said of what you wrote.
Sorry (not actually, you're full of shit), but conservatives are not monolithic in thought or opinion.
@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:
I was wondering how long it would take.
The Candace effect.
You know, it helps if you don't believe your own bullshit...
The same could be said of what you wrote.
Sorry (not actually, you're full of shit), but conservatives are not monolithic in thought or opinion.
Well, your question about why we haven't got boots on the ground since it would be so easy to beat the Russians was easily the dumbest thing I've seen all day
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@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:
I was wondering how long it would take.
The Candace effect.
You know, it helps if you don't believe your own bullshit...
The same could be said of what you wrote.
Sorry (not actually, you're full of shit), but conservatives are not monolithic in thought or opinion.
Well, your question about why we haven't got boots on the ground since it would be so easy to beat the Russians was easily the dumbest thing I've seen all day
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:
I was wondering how long it would take.
The Candace effect.
You know, it helps if you don't believe your own bullshit...
The same could be said of what you wrote.
Sorry (not actually, you're full of shit), but conservatives are not monolithic in thought or opinion.
Well, your question about why we haven't got boots on the ground since it would be so easy to beat the Russians was easily the dumbest thing I've seen all day
Stop and think. What's the difference between killing them with American hardware, letting Poland give them jets, or enforcing a no-fly zone? Those are three levels, with multiple scenarios. Care to answer the problem or just throw silly peanuts from the gallery?
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:
I was wondering how long it would take.
For what to take? I'm simply making a statement that when my views closely match the general popular consensus it throws up a red flag and makes me want to step back and take another look for the facts that I am not seeing?
You can wonder if there's more to the story without being a Russian tool for disinformation...You can also wonder if there's more to the story while still generally supporting Ukraine.
