The Ukraine war thread

[AndyD]

Winston Churchill would have been disgusted by the way Trump & Vance acted and spoke.
As am I.

Winnie of course did promise to pay the US (and Canada) for 'help' with our little war; and we honoured his word by paying back the world's richest nation in full.
Only took us the next 60 years, long after he was dead bless him.

[Mik]

My problem here is all this puts Ukraine in as weak a position as I could imagine short of surrender. Whatever occurs now will not be as favorable as it could have been. Trump has marginalized a nation.

[Jolly]

There's a lot of stupid within this thread.

A few facts:

1. The peace was supposed to have been a three step process
2. First step was the mineral deal
3. Second step was a cease-fire or truce. There had already been talks with France and Great Britain about providing peacekeeping trooops.
4. Third step was a negotiation for peace with Russia, Ukraine and the U.S.

The Whitehouse had been working on this for weeks. It had already been agreed upon.

[89th]

Yup totally. And Zelenskyy asked Vance his thoughts on Putin’s repeated violations of previous diplomacy and cease fires to which Vance threw a tantrum about not saying thank you. Vance should’ve said something simple about how this time it’ll be different because we have a leader that will enforce security agreements. Even Trump during the meeting said he’s the toughest person in the world but that he doesn’t want for it to come to that.

[89th]

@Mik said in The Ukraine war thread:

My problem here is all this puts Ukraine in as weak a position as I could imagine short of surrender. Whatever occurs now will not be as favorable as it could have been. Trump has marginalized a nation.

You are probably right, but I am hoping you’re wrong. There needed to be a public worldwide reminder that a “deal” that includes the annexation of more land into Russia’s control is unacceptable…they are a murderous aggressor and history is rich with lessons about how such appeasements do not work out in the long run.

[Renauda]

There's a lot of stupid within this thread.

Actually, there isn’t and only a fool would believe it otherwise.

[Jolly]

@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

Yup totally. And Zelenskyy asked Vance his thoughts on Putin’s repeated violations of previous diplomacy and cease fires to which Vance threw a tantrum about not saying thank you. Vance should’ve said something simple about how this time it’ll be different because we have a leader that will enforce security agreements. Even Trump during the meeting said he’s the toughest person in the world but that he doesn’t want for it to come to that.

What part of "already agreed upon " don't you understand? Zelensky was supposed to come to the Whitehouse, do a photo-op with a few questions, handle things a bit diplomatically and then he could bring up any concerns in a private luncheon.

Instead, he shows up to the Whitehouse looking like he's going to a Romanian Rave and runs his mouth where he didn't need to go. J.D. jumped on him (maybe because J.D. is a Marine and already a little pissed at the guy) and Trump weighed in like grandpa telling one of the neighbor's kids how the calf ate the cabbage. Then, Trump basically told him to get his butt outta there. No deal, no meal. Buy your own damn lunch.

Maybe you've worked remote for so long, you've forgotten how business works or you simply hate Trump so much you're biased. When you are the weak side of the deal, you get the best deal you can. You don't do anything to screw up your side of the table. Zelensky screwed the pooch.

And for all you folks with your bullshit analysis, let's boil this down to simple facts: Either a deal is cut with Trump's help or the Europeans have to step in and rescue Ukraine. The first is possible and the second ain't happening. Those are your choices, if you wish Ukraine to survive as an independent nation.

So get your big girl panties on, quit sniping from the peanut gallery and decide what the fuck you want. Binary choice.

Pick one.

[Renauda]

So get your big girl panties on, quit sniping from the peanut gallery and decide what the fuck you want. Binary choice.

You are perfectly free to wear big women's knickers, however I would maintain all the real men here prefer to remain in men’s boxer shorts.

In the meantime can we offer you a saddle? It must be getting uncomfortable for you perched up there on that high horse.

[Jolly]

Interesting and explains a few things...

[Renauda]

I ought to have posted the following last week when it was released. Regardless, and in light of yesterday’s train wreck, this interview with the former head of Britain’s MI6, Sir Alex Younger, continues to remain relevant:

"Putin needs this to succeed more than Trump does. And I think that give Trump quite a lot more power than perhaps he realizes."

Link to video

Key takeaway is that Putin is not dealing from a position of strength but as yesterday’s encounter with Zelenskyi demonstrated, Trump and his team do not seem to realize this.

[89th]

@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:

Maybe you've worked remote for so long, you've forgotten how business works or you simply hate Trump so much you're biased. When you are the weak side of the deal, you get the best deal you can. You don't do anything to screw up your side of the table. Zelensky screwed the pooch.

And for all you folks with your bullshit analysis, let's boil this down to simple facts: Either a deal is cut with Trump's help or the Europeans have to step in and rescue Ukraine. The first is possible and the second ain't happening. Those are your choices, if you wish Ukraine to survive as an independent nation.

Yes cut a deal, but Trump is hinting at taking the lazy way out and giving Putin a reward (land etc) after invading a country and causing 1.5 million deaths.

It’s not about “cutting a deal” it’s about negotiating without abandoning our principles. But again Trump just wants a deal, no matter the damage.

[Renauda]

@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

Vlad, who is at least as pro-Ukraine as anybody else, and at least as anti-Trump, weighs in. So refreshing to hear from someone who can manage to think around his emotions. Amidst the requisite lamentations about Trump and Vance, he calls Zelensky flat footed, caught off guard, petulant, and not up to the task of what should have been a navigable political situation.

Vlad Vexler’s breakdown on this war and the personalities involved, never disappoints. His one swing and miss though seems to be the reaction of Ukrainians - they are rallying around Zelenskyi rather than questioning his words and actions of yesterday. Nevertheless, for me this was a half hour well spent and good medicine for anyone willing to listen. Regardless of one’s personal sympathies and prejudices in this conflict, what Vexler presents here is thoughtful, incisive and based on careful observation of what is unfolding.
Thanks for the link.

Horace, while you and I view the world around ourselves very differently and are decidedly miles apart ideologically, I very much appreciate that you do not bring distracting links made of half truths and coffee shop gossip and innuendo into these discussions in a attempt to support an unsubstantiated argument or understanding of the issues at hand.

[LuFins Dad]

So we have two ideological driven narratives.

1. Trump is right, Trump is always right. Ergo, Vance is right by default. So by definition. Zelenskyy must be a total dickhead and an idiot. He’s not ready for the big time and needs to leave the world stage. Maybe we should invade Ukraine.

2. Trump is wrong. He is by his very nature wrong and must be evil. Therefore Vance is evil by default. And Zelenskyy must be a brave hero that has done everything correct in the defense of his country and Trump went beyond just embarrassing us, but is a danger to this country and we must rise up and overthrow him to save Democracy!

And there seems to be very little in between. As I’ve said many times in the past, I love it when everyone gets what they want, which seems to be what happened yesterday.

But, just maybe, yesterday was something in between? Maybe, just maybe, Trump and JD were being a little bit of dicks, while still being correct in some ways? And maybe, just maybe, Zelenskyy came in with a chip on his shoulder, and was feeling bullied, and responded in kind? Maybe, just maybe no one was blameless yesterday and everyone overreacted? It couldn’t possibly be that, could it?

[LuFins Dad]

And I am sick of the Papal Infallibility aura that Trumpeters are touting, and the exact opposite of pure Trump Fallibility.

[Renauda]

@LuFins-Dad

I guess it depends on how individuals are experiencing the Trump phenomenon right now. From where I sit, it is not at all pleasant, desirable or even the least bit warranted. I do however try to restrict my comments and disdain to foreign policy topics that in one way or another impinge on me, my family and my country.

I freely admit however that I find the man, his populist politics and his base repugnant and beneath contempt.

[LuFins Dad]

@Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

@LuFins-Dad

I guess it depends on how individuals are experiencing the Trump phenomenon right now. From where I sit, it is not at all pleasant, desirable or even the least bit warranted. I do however try to restrict my comments and disdain to foreign policy topics that in one way or another impinge on me, my family and my country.

I freely admit however that I find the man, his populist politics and his base repugnant and beneath contempt.

My problem is that I find roughly 90% of the global population repugnant and beneath contempt.

[Horace]

@Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

Vlad, who is at least as pro-Ukraine as anybody else, and at least as anti-Trump, weighs in. So refreshing to hear from someone who can manage to think around his emotions. Amidst the requisite lamentations about Trump and Vance, he calls Zelensky flat footed, caught off guard, petulant, and not up to the task of what should have been a navigable political situation.

Vlad Vexler’s breakdown on this war and the personalities involved, never disappoints. His one swing and miss though seems to be the reaction of Ukrainians - they are rallying around Zelenskyi rather than questioning his words and actions of yesterday. Nevertheless, for me this was a half hour well spent and good medicine for anyone willing to listen. Regardless of one’s personal sympathies and prejudices in this conflict, what Vexler presents here is thoughtful, incisive and based on careful observation of what is unfolding.
Thanks for the link.

Horace, while you and I view the world around ourselves very differently and are decidedly miles apart ideologically, I very much appreciate that you do not bring distracting links to half truths and coffee shop gossip and innuendo into these discussions in a attempt to support an unsubstantiated argument or understanding of the issues at hand.

Thanks Renauda, I'm glad you appreciated Vlad's essay. I almost always get something out of his videos, so he's one of the few people I still consistently listen to.

[Renauda]

@LuFins-Dad

My problem is that I find roughly 90% of the global population repugnant and beneath contempt.

Like me, you too are showing your age.

Being that I am bit older than you, I no longer see it as a problem.

555

[Horace]

@LuFins-Dad said in The Ukraine war thread:

So we have two ideological driven narratives.

1. Trump is right, Trump is always right. Ergo, Vance is right by default. So by definition. Zelenskyy must be a total dickhead and an idiot. He’s not ready for the big time and needs to leave the world stage. Maybe we should invade Ukraine.

2. Trump is wrong. He is by his very nature wrong and must be evil. Therefore Vance is evil by default. And Zelenskyy must be a brave hero that has done everything correct in the defense of his country and Trump went beyond just embarrassing us, but is a danger to this country and we must rise up and overthrow him to save Democracy!

And there seems to be very little in between. As I’ve said many times in the past, I love it when everyone gets what they want, which seems to be what happened yesterday.

But, just maybe, yesterday was something in between? Maybe, just maybe, Trump and JD were being a little bit of dicks, while still being correct in some ways? And maybe, just maybe, Zelenskyy came in with a chip on his shoulder, and was feeling bullied, and responded in kind? Maybe, just maybe no one was blameless yesterday and everyone overreacted? It couldn’t possibly be that, could it?

I mean, it's always the case that blunt characterizations of the rhetoric of both sides will seem like both sides are silly. But for anybody who wants to present a thoughtful or nuanced view, this is the sort of thing they're up against, with the mainstream Trump haters. Their feelings are at fever pitch. This short doesn't even show when this guy was literally screaming, later in the podcast.

Link to video

[jon-nyc]

@LuFins-Dad said in The Ukraine war thread:

My problem is that I find roughly 90% of the global population repugnant and beneath contempt.

See, this is where it comes out that I’m much more of a humanist than you. I personally believe 90% of humanity is very much deserving of contempt.