The Ukraine war thread
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Just watched the entire hour meeting. Overall it was cordial although a little odd when Trump would answer for Zelenskyy but I get it. It was absolutely JD Vance who all of a sudden dropped a chaos grenade at the end when Zelenskyy asked him directly what he means by using diplomacy when it has failed before and Putin has violated ceasefires time after time and then JD gets all puffy about Ukraine not having manpower and you should be thanking us…pretty embarrassing.
Not breaking news, but interesting to see the dynamic shift at the last 5 minutes, almost like JD and Trump were holding back anger or something.
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@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
I’m most disappointed that I won’t learn how minerals were supposed to turn into Russia halting its invasion.
One reporter asked the best question, she said many rare earth metals are on the east edge of Ukraine, so what happens if Russia invades where the US is getting Ukrainian minerals mined… (aka will the deal require Ukraine to resume control of their land in the East)
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This part was interesting. Trump tipped his hand. He’s basically saying that he himself is the security guarantee.
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
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That’s pretty much how I saw it also as I posted earlier today.
It, in fact, almost seemed choreographed for Vance to go on the attack should Zelenskyi criticize or question Putin’s integrity in adhering to any diplomatic principles or treaty obligations.
‘a-blowe yow and be-kele yow wel, and comyth up all with your ease’ ~ attributed to Henry V
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@Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:
That’s pretty much how I saw it also as I posted earlier today.
It, in fact, almost seemed choreographed for Vance to go on the attack should Zelenskyi criticize or question Putin’s integrity in adhering to any diplomatic principles or treaty obligations.
Yes sorry if it was duplicate. I listened to the meeting while picking up dinner and juggling kids so I haven’t read all of the latest in this thread.
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@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
Education is extremely important.
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
Yes, this sounds like a serious situation, but are we not going to confront it now because there wasn’t sufficient gratitude coming from Zelensky?
Either we believe something is in our interest or it isn’t. I didn’t think Trump was going to do anything out of the goodness of his heart.
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@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
Sometimes, I forget that you didn't live through "duck and cover" and the Cuban Missile Crisis.
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@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
Yes, this sounds like a serious situation, but are we not going to confront it now because there wasn’t sufficient gratitude coming from Zelensky?
Either we believe something is in our interest or it isn’t. I didn’t think Trump was going to do anything out of the goodness of his heart.
I am not sure a cold, calculating standard would lead us to care too much about what happens in Ukraine. What we can see very clearly, is that the public discussion is obsessed with the virtue of the situation, rather than the practical impacts on America. This may simply be because the masses are only capable of galvanizing around virtue, rather than complicated strategic considerations. It may also have to do with the case for practical impacts being flimsy.
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It’s almost like she had a crystal ball.
Link to video -
I thought Gary Kasparov made a good observation in the wake of today’s train wreck in international relations:
”If Zelensky had wanted to surrender, he would have gone to Moscow, not Washington”
What we can see very clearly, is that the public discussion is obsessed with the virtue of the situation, rather than the practical impacts on America. This may simply be because the masses are only capable of galvanizing around virtue, rather than complicated strategic considerations.
Unfortunately or fortunately, and depending, I guess, on how one personally defines or understands virtue, it all boils down to choosing a moral course of action an immoral course of action or an amoral course of action I know which of those three the Kremlin chose ten years ago and continues to hold. I’m just not at all sure of the virtue of the remaining two.
