The Ukraine war thread
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All Zelenskyi did was point out the fact that previous diplomacy attempts with Putin - ie The Minsk Accords - all failed. In every instance Putin broke the agreement and resumed his aggression. Vance pounced on him and accused Zelenskyi of litigating the war in the cherished Oval Office. The yelling match then escalated. It came off as Vance acting as agent provocateur. If I didn’t know better, I would say it was choreographed.
It is nothing short of a disaster.
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I think Zelensky surprised them by not even attempting to be diplomatic or deferential. That's his choice, but he's probably not well advised to think it'll be effective with Trump. He must be hoping it'll be effective with the western media who are already on his side. I'm sure they'll love it, I'm just not sure how meaningful that is.
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@Mik I think Zelensky surprised them. Surprised me, too. He's awfully cavalier about his personal relationship with this administration and American culture at large. I am surprised he is comfortable being that cavalier. But he's the guy in charge, and I hope he knows what he's doing. I'm not completely convinced that he does.
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Everyone loves it when Trump acts without decorum, but we need to handle the stable genius with kid gloves.
We’ve internalized his childishness to the point where we get mad at other adults for not catering to it.
The man is a moron. The emperor has no clothes.
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I will await patiently for anybody to give any thought to the choices Zelensky made in that conversation, and their practical effect.
We can stipulate for the purposes of the conversation that Trump is the bad guy, and maybe think around that for a moment, to touch on practical effects.
Just kidding, the usual suspects will not be capable of that, with the exception of Renauda.
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Does anybody think that Trump and Vance came out of that looking good?
And which rocket surgeon had the idea to televise that?
'Professional' wasn't the word that sprang to mind.
"How many times have you said thank you?" Fucking hell.
I was only joking
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@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
It kind of doesn’t matter. People have a sense of what’s right. If they feel like they’re getting bullied, they’ll often yell “fuck you” back to them even if it means they get punched in the face.
Life isn’t always an accounting exercise.
It doesn't matter, huh. Interesting perspective. The practical effects of where this leads to, matter. They matter regardless of any puffery about knowing what's right.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
Does anybody think that Trump and Vance came out of that looking good?
And which rocket surgeon had the idea to televise that?
No, I thought Vance was caught off balance, and seemed hesitant about what to say. Trump just got puffy and indignant.
I will continue to wait patiently for anybody to think about whether zelenksy's choices in the conversation were wise.
My best hope is that it will be water under the bridge.
Education is extremely important.
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
I will continue to wait patiently for anybody to think about whether zelenksy's choices in the conversation were wise.
Well, Vance jumped in and accused him of being disrespectful. He hadn't been disrespectful in any way up until that point, and then Vance jumped in sounding like a guy in a high school debate. Z's country is being ripped apart, and he has to put up with those two guys trying to score really quite petty political points. I'd be pissed if I was him, too.
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
"He was angry" sounds a lot like "I know he said dumb things, but he was angry".
Well, the guy saying the really dumb things was the one in the middle. And he always sounds angry. And Vance trying to play the victim was ridiculous 'You haven't said thank you', honestly it was horrible.
Sure, Zelensky could have played it better. But nobody came out of that looking good, and it started going downhill with Vance.
I was only joking
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@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace - if Zelenky thought, because of private interactions or his best assessment of the situation, that Trump is 100% full of shit.
Let’s assume that. Then would it be a good course of action to try to expose him?
Well, I listened to the conversation, and I don't have any idea what proof you think Zelensky offered about Trump being 100% full of shit. I heard some detailed history of Russia being a bad-faith actor in negotiations and agreements, which goes back to Obama. Is that a nail in the coffin of Trump's credibility?
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I have no proof. I’m just saying - if Zelensky thought, through his own evidence or assessment - that Trump was full of shit, this might be a rational way to act.
I mean I don’t believe a word he says. I wouldn’t bet my country on his word. I know he doesn’t have many good alternatives…. Europe I guess?
Maybe that’s the next claim of 4D chess. Trump did this to get the Europeans to play more. How magnanimous he is - makes himself look bad for the good of the world.
