Not a riot
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Not a riot:
@George-K I still have the same question for you, so I'll put it another way:
Why would it make sense to call the fires set to cars and businesses after curfew in DC a "protest"?
Why would it make sense to call the demonstration that took place outside St. John's a "riot"?
- Burning cars. looting, throwing bricks at police, and smashing windows = "riot."
- Marching down the street, waving arms, carrying signs, chanting = "protest."
So, when I see #1, that falls under riot.
When I see #2, that's protest.I hear different stories about what happened at St. Johns, and to be honest, I haven't followed that too closely - other than the fire that was set there. So, I'll reserve judgment.
I think the first post in this thread makes my position pretty clear.
wrote on 3 Jun 2020, 19:02 last edited by@George-K said in Not a riot:
I hear different stories about what happened at St. Johns, and to be honest, I haven't followed that too closely - other than the fire that was set there. So, I'll reserve judgment.
That's because each incident is different and doesn't involve the same people. Like at all. The fire that was set there was riotous behavior, absolutely. But that was at night. That wasn't when the crowd was broken up for Trump's photo op. No fires were set there then, and nothing was thrown at police.
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@George-K said in Not a riot:
I hear different stories about what happened at St. Johns, and to be honest, I haven't followed that too closely - other than the fire that was set there. So, I'll reserve judgment.
That's because each incident is different and doesn't involve the same people. Like at all. The fire that was set there was riotous behavior, absolutely. But that was at night. That wasn't when the crowd was broken up for Trump's photo op. No fires were set there then, and nothing was thrown at police.
wrote on 3 Jun 2020, 19:25 last edited by@Aqua-Letifer said in Not a riot:
No fires were set there then, and nothing was thrown at police.
https://www.nps.gov/subjects/uspp/6_2_20_statement_from_acting_chief_monahan.htm
United States Park Police acting Chief Gregory Monahan.
On Monday, June 1, the USPP worked with the United States Secret Service to have temporary fencing installed inside Lafayette Park. At approximately 6:33 pm, violent protestors on H Street NW began throwing projectiles including bricks, frozen water bottles and caustic liquids. The protestors also climbed onto a historic building at the north end of Lafayette Park that was destroyed by arson days prior. Intelligence had revealed calls for violence against the police, and officers found caches of glass bottles, baseball bats and metal poles hidden along the street.
You're saying the Chief of Police for the Park Service is mistaken?
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@George-K said in Not a riot:
I hear different stories about what happened at St. Johns, and to be honest, I haven't followed that too closely - other than the fire that was set there. So, I'll reserve judgment.
That's because each incident is different and doesn't involve the same people. Like at all. The fire that was set there was riotous behavior, absolutely. But that was at night. That wasn't when the crowd was broken up for Trump's photo op. No fires were set there then, and nothing was thrown at police.
wrote on 3 Jun 2020, 19:28 last edited by Larry 6 Mar 2020, 19:30@Aqua-Letifer said in Not a riot:
@George-K said in Not a riot:
I hear different stories about what happened at St. Johns, and to be honest, I haven't followed that too closely - other than the fire that was set there. So, I'll reserve judgment.
That's because each incident is different and doesn't involve the same people. Like at all. The fire that was set there was riotous behavior, absolutely. But that was at night. That wasn't when the crowd was broken up for Trump's photo op. No fires were set there then, and nothing was thrown at police.
And no rubber bullets were fired, no tear gas was used, and it wasn't Trump that ordered the area cleared, it was AG Barr. And, the woman preacher has been proven to be a liar and a Leftist radical with an agenda.
You are working entirely too hard to make the point that some of the protesters were harmless and peaceful. We all know that.
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wrote on 3 Jun 2020, 19:36 last edited by
Bottom line?
When the Secret Service asks you to move, move.
Apparently, they don't ask twice.
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Bottom line?
When the Secret Service asks you to move, move.
Apparently, they don't ask twice.
wrote on 3 Jun 2020, 19:40 last edited by@Jolly said in Not a riot:
Bottom line?
When the Secret Service asks you to move, move.
Apparently, they don't ask twice.
There's a lesson to be learned here about how to deal with law enforcement in general, but then mentioning that there are two sides to law enforcement interactions is a wrong side of history thing to say.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Not a riot:
No fires were set there then, and nothing was thrown at police.
https://www.nps.gov/subjects/uspp/6_2_20_statement_from_acting_chief_monahan.htm
United States Park Police acting Chief Gregory Monahan.
On Monday, June 1, the USPP worked with the United States Secret Service to have temporary fencing installed inside Lafayette Park. At approximately 6:33 pm, violent protestors on H Street NW began throwing projectiles including bricks, frozen water bottles and caustic liquids. The protestors also climbed onto a historic building at the north end of Lafayette Park that was destroyed by arson days prior. Intelligence had revealed calls for violence against the police, and officers found caches of glass bottles, baseball bats and metal poles hidden along the street.
You're saying the Chief of Police for the Park Service is mistaken?
wrote on 3 Jun 2020, 21:26 last edited by@George-K said in Not a riot:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Not a riot:
No fires were set there then, and nothing was thrown at police.
https://www.nps.gov/subjects/uspp/6_2_20_statement_from_acting_chief_monahan.htm
United States Park Police acting Chief Gregory Monahan.
On Monday, June 1, the USPP worked with the United States Secret Service to have temporary fencing installed inside Lafayette Park. At approximately 6:33 pm, violent protestors on H Street NW began throwing projectiles including bricks, frozen water bottles and caustic liquids. The protestors also climbed onto a historic building at the north end of Lafayette Park that was destroyed by arson days prior. Intelligence had revealed calls for violence against the police, and officers found caches of glass bottles, baseball bats and metal poles hidden along the street.
You're saying the Chief of Police for the Park Service is mistaken?
You said this earlier:
Sorry, no.
Clinton said that tear gas was fired into the crowd.
Park Police Chief says no.
One of the two (as I posted) is not true. I suppose you can choose which one you choose to believe.At Lafayette, June 1, 6:30pm. I guess you're going to tell me these are fires set by the protesters?
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wrote on 3 Jun 2020, 21:39 last edited by
You pointed out that the fire that I talked about (in the context of what constitutes a riot, not the specific incident you tend to conflate it with - the photo op) was a
daynight earlier. I acknowledge that.Your photo doesn't address my point about the
demonstratorsprotestorsrioters being violent, as the Chief of Police stated.Are you calling him a liar?
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You pointed out that the fire that I talked about (in the context of what constitutes a riot, not the specific incident you tend to conflate it with - the photo op) was a
daynight earlier. I acknowledge that.Your photo doesn't address my point about the
demonstratorsprotestorsrioters being violent, as the Chief of Police stated.Are you calling him a liar?
wrote on 3 Jun 2020, 22:27 last edited by@George-K said in Not a riot:
You pointed out that the fire that I talked about (in the context of what constitutes a riot, not the specific incident you tend to conflate it with - the photo op) was a
daynight earlier. I acknowledge that.Your photo doesn't address my point about the
demonstratorsprotestorsrioters being violent, as the Chief of Police stated.Are you calling him a liar?
I can't speak for every single person who was at the protest, and neither can the police chief, you, or anyone else. So I can't say that absolutely, to a person, no one engaged in any violence.
What I can say is that yeah, he's a damn liar, in that he appears to be trying to paint a picture that's completely untrue. I use social media for photo stuff, and so a lot of the folks I know through there are photographers, and they were there because they wanted to cover the event. With every single video I've watched from TikTok and Instagram, and from what people have told me who were there at the time, the crowd was just standing around. (And it wasn't even that huge of a crowd, comparatively speaking.) It wasn't LA in '65, which appears to be what this guy is trying to imply.
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wrote on 3 Jun 2020, 22:38 last edited by
I’m not following the debate. There is no question there has been mayhem and wholesale destruction in DC. Are we just talking the moment where Trump had the crowd moved so he could do his photo op?
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I’m not following the debate. There is no question there has been mayhem and wholesale destruction in DC. Are we just talking the moment where Trump had the crowd moved so he could do his photo op?
wrote on 3 Jun 2020, 22:50 last edited by Aqua Letifer 6 Mar 2020, 23:01@Loki said in Not a riot:
I’m not following the debate. There is no question there has been mayhem and wholesale destruction in DC. Are we just talking the moment where Trump had the crowd moved so he could do his photo op?
Pretty much. What I think happened, was that there were several departments involved (not just 2), and the White House didn't properly coordinate with all of them. So it wasn't handled the best to put it mildly.
But what I'm also saying is that everything going on, everything across the country and now in other cities around the world, is not only and exclusively rioters and "lemmings seeking catharsis." That's precisely as ignorant as "All Cops Are Bastards."
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@Loki said in Not a riot:
I’m not following the debate. There is no question there has been mayhem and wholesale destruction in DC. Are we just talking the moment where Trump had the crowd moved so he could do his photo op?
Pretty much. What I think happened, was that there were several departments involved (not just 2), and the White House didn't properly coordinate with all of them. So it wasn't handled the best to put it mildly.
But what I'm also saying is that everything going on, everything across the country and now in other cities around the world, is not only and exclusively rioters and "lemmings seeking catharsis." That's precisely as ignorant as "All Cops Are Bastards."
wrote on 3 Jun 2020, 23:35 last edited by Loki 6 Mar 2020, 23:37@Aqua-Letifer said in Not a riot:
@Loki said in Not a riot:
I’m not following the debate. There is no question there has been mayhem and wholesale destruction in DC. Are we just talking the moment where Trump had the crowd moved so he could do his photo op?
Pretty much. What I think happened, was that there were several departments involved (not just 2), and the White House didn't properly coordinate with all of them. So it wasn't handled the best to put it mildly.
But what I'm also saying is that everything going on, everything across the country and now in other cities around the world, is not only and exclusively rioters and "lemmings seeking catharsis." That's precisely as ignorant as "All Cops Are Bastards."
No doubt that the vast majority of protesters are sincere and peaceful. The problem is that they are being used as human shields and pawns and the peaceful protesters seem to be okay with that. You can’t easily skirt that accountability.
Covid, death and hundreds of millions of dollars of destruction be damned!
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wrote on 3 Jun 2020, 23:44 last edited by Mik 6 Mar 2020, 23:45
I really do not think Trump handles the operational details of his Secret Service folks. I'm also not sure there was any way they could have handled it that would not have resulted in some form of the interpretation we see today. The audience is too willing to believe.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Not a riot:
@Loki said in Not a riot:
I’m not following the debate. There is no question there has been mayhem and wholesale destruction in DC. Are we just talking the moment where Trump had the crowd moved so he could do his photo op?
Pretty much. What I think happened, was that there were several departments involved (not just 2), and the White House didn't properly coordinate with all of them. So it wasn't handled the best to put it mildly.
But what I'm also saying is that everything going on, everything across the country and now in other cities around the world, is not only and exclusively rioters and "lemmings seeking catharsis." That's precisely as ignorant as "All Cops Are Bastards."
No doubt that the vast majority of protesters are sincere and peaceful. The problem is that they are being used as human shields and pawns and the peaceful protesters seem to be okay with that. You can’t easily skirt that accountability.
Covid, death and hundreds of millions of dollars of destruction be damned!
wrote on 4 Jun 2020, 00:38 last edited by@Loki said in Not a riot:
No doubt that the vast majority of protesters are sincere and peaceful. The problem is that they are being used as human shields and pawns and the peaceful protesters seem to be okay with that. You can’t easily skirt that accountability.
Now you're just making stuff up.
These "rioters" fought to protect a Miami CVS from looters:
These "rioters" did the same in NYC:
I'm sure you've seen this one, right? The "rioters" who protected the separated police officer?
Or how about this one? Do these "rioters" look like they're throwing caustic chemicals on cops to you?
More "rioters" protecting stores:
Can we all admit this is a complicated situation and that the crowd is (1) changing hour by hour and (2) not at all on the same page, or are we still stuck on demonizing protesters and glorifying all police?
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wrote on 4 Jun 2020, 01:00 last edited by
It’s absolutely complicated. I’m not terribly sure what the debate is about but I admit I skimmed through the recent posts.
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wrote on 4 Jun 2020, 01:22 last edited by
Aqua wants everybody to be aware that protesters are not douche bags as a rule.
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wrote on 4 Jun 2020, 01:26 last edited by
My $0.02 about all of it—which everyone is free to criticize of course: the protests are primarily about BLM, which I think isn't even close to factual. Systemic racism is a problem coming from the odd dumbshit, not "the police," "the system," "white people" or whatever.
Gladwell's "Talking to Strangers" is about the best diagnosis of the problem I've come across. You've got some communities where the police are either in an impossible position, or where the town council is more impressed by drug and gun roundups than they are lower crime stats. So there's a lot of strung-out, overworked, underfunded police forces employing Kansas City-style "look beyond the ticket" enforcement. Which is a great way to destroy relations with the local community. Meanwhile, when that same community actually needs the police, they're nowhere to be found, because again, they're overworked and underfunded.
Oh and those poor communities are almost always minority communities, because poor white communities have an equally shitty but different dynamic. (But I think that's a whole other thing.)
Black guy gets 8 tickets for sitting in his car, but when his cousin is shot, no police in sight. And the nicer, whiter communities seldom have these stories. On the surface, how in the hell can you not call that systemic racism? It isn't, but I can certainly understand the conclusion. And then sure, yeah, you have cops who say "well you know, all the guys who ever shot at me were black, so..." They might not be wrong but again, wrong conclusion to draw. I think it's poverty and income inequality. There's no sociological phenomenon that has a higher correlation than income inequality and violent crime. None. It's a thing. And not only has no one ever solved it, the Pareto distribution continues to skew more extreme.
I may be wrong about all of it. But I refuse to believe poor, inner city communities are not having a bad time of it, whatever the reason. So yeah, they've got some shit to protest about. And a ton of them are trying to be lawful about it.
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wrote on 4 Jun 2020, 01:27 last edited by
If They're out there protesting, they are douche bags whether they're violent or not. This wasn't anything that merited a protest march to start with.
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@Loki said in Not a riot:
No doubt that the vast majority of protesters are sincere and peaceful. The problem is that they are being used as human shields and pawns and the peaceful protesters seem to be okay with that. You can’t easily skirt that accountability.
Now you're just making stuff up.
These "rioters" fought to protect a Miami CVS from looters:
These "rioters" did the same in NYC:
I'm sure you've seen this one, right? The "rioters" who protected the separated police officer?
Or how about this one? Do these "rioters" look like they're throwing caustic chemicals on cops to you?
More "rioters" protecting stores:
Can we all admit this is a complicated situation and that the crowd is (1) changing hour by hour and (2) not at all on the same page, or are we still stuck on demonizing protesters and glorifying all police?
wrote on 4 Jun 2020, 01:29 last edited by@Aqua-Letifer said in Not a riot:
@Loki said in Not a riot:
No doubt that the vast majority of protesters are sincere and peaceful. The problem is that they are being used as human shields and pawns and the peaceful protesters seem to be okay with that. You can’t easily skirt that accountability.
Now you're just making stuff up.
These "rioters" fought to protect a Miami CVS from looters:
These "rioters" did the same in NYC:
I'm sure you've seen this one, right? The "rioters" who protected the separated police officer?
Or how about this one? Do these "rioters" look like they're throwing caustic chemicals on cops to you?
More "rioters" protecting stores:
Can we all admit this is a complicated situation and that the crowd is (1) changing hour by hour and (2) not at all on the same page, or are we still stuck on demonizing protesters and glorifying all police?
I understand they mean well but you can’t explain away the lost lives and destruction. It’s just not possible.
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wrote on 4 Jun 2020, 01:31 last edited by
They'd say exactly the same thing about George Floyd. And I'm not explaining it away and neither are they. It's a tough situation to say the least.
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If They're out there protesting, they are douche bags whether they're violent or not. This wasn't anything that merited a protest march to start with.
wrote on 4 Jun 2020, 01:33 last edited by Horace 6 Apr 2020, 01:35@Larry said in Not a riot:
If They're out there protesting, they are douche bags whether they're violent or not. This wasn't anything that merited a protest march to start with.
If mainstream peace loving society is going to be held hostage to a zero tolerance policy for individual bad cops acting badly, or else the rioting will commence, the situation seems untenable.
Gosh I just had a martial law curfew imposed on me for the first time in my life. Nary a peep about anything that caused that profoundly fvcked up situation other than the one bad cop doing a bad thing in Minnesota. And now I can't leave my house after 8pm under penalty of arrest. I guess it's the butterfly effect.