Crumbley's parents charged with involuntary manslaughter
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15 years
ANDY MCCARTHY: It's completely unprecedented ...your heart breaks for the parents of the children who were killed here. But you have to remember that the person who actually did the shooting got treated as an adult and was sentenced to life in prison. So it's not like the system didn't carry out law enforcement against the person who actually did this. It's unprecedented to hold the parents accountable to something that they obviously didn't plan, agree to participate in. I frankly just don't think that this is what the criminal justice system is for. I think the criminal justice system mainly should be reserved for intentional wrongs. And I think it's more troubling here because Michigan actually attempted to or proposed passing child access prevention laws, which would prevent – which would make it a crime for parents to negligently allow their children to have access to firearms. And the legislature wouldn't pass that. So what happened here is the prosecutor made up a crime on the fly that the legislature had not opted to pass.
It's a Pandora's box. You're extending the criminal law to people who didn't actually commit the crimes.
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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Saw one comment in the X thread about the Chicago shooting saying the parents of the youths that shoot people should face charges. Of course in that case it would only be the one parent, which should lighten the load on the justice system.
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Saw one comment in the X thread about the Chicago shooting saying the parents of the youths that shoot people should face charges. Of course in that case it would only be the one parent, which should lighten the load on the justice system.
@Horace said in Crumbley's parents charged with involuntary manslaughter:
Of course in that case it would only be the one parent, which should lighten the load on the justice system.
That's what I love about you. You're a half-full kind of guy. Looking for the graduation pictures, and now this.
Bless you, and the work you do.
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@Horace said in Crumbley's parents charged with involuntary manslaughter:
Of course in that case it would only be the one parent, which should lighten the load on the justice system.
That's what I love about you. You're a half-full kind of guy. Looking for the graduation pictures, and now this.
Bless you, and the work you do.
@George-K said in Crumbley's parents charged with involuntary manslaughter:
@Horace said in Crumbley's parents charged with involuntary manslaughter:
Of course in that case it would only be the one parent, which should lighten the load on the justice system.
That's what I love about you. You're a half-full kind of guy. Looking for the graduation pictures, and now this.
Bless you, and the work you do.
Thanks George. Helping is my passion.
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15 years
ANDY MCCARTHY: It's completely unprecedented ...your heart breaks for the parents of the children who were killed here. But you have to remember that the person who actually did the shooting got treated as an adult and was sentenced to life in prison. So it's not like the system didn't carry out law enforcement against the person who actually did this. It's unprecedented to hold the parents accountable to something that they obviously didn't plan, agree to participate in. I frankly just don't think that this is what the criminal justice system is for. I think the criminal justice system mainly should be reserved for intentional wrongs. And I think it's more troubling here because Michigan actually attempted to or proposed passing child access prevention laws, which would prevent – which would make it a crime for parents to negligently allow their children to have access to firearms. And the legislature wouldn't pass that. So what happened here is the prosecutor made up a crime on the fly that the legislature had not opted to pass.
It's a Pandora's box. You're extending the criminal law to people who didn't actually commit the crimes.
@George-K said in Crumbley's parents charged with involuntary manslaughter:
You're extending the criminal law to people who didn't actually commit the crimes.
They do it a lot with drugs. Someone who was the original drug seller can be charged with murder if they drug taker overdoses.
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@George-K said in Crumbley's parents charged with involuntary manslaughter:
You're extending the criminal law to people who didn't actually commit the crimes.
They do it a lot with drugs. Someone who was the original drug seller can be charged with murder if they drug taker overdoses.
@taiwan_girl said in Crumbley's parents charged with involuntary manslaughter:
They do it a lot with drugs. Someone who was the original drug seller can be charged with murder if they drug taker overdoses.
I believe a bartender has some legal exposure if a customer leaves the bar and involved in a DUI which kills someone.
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15 years
ANDY MCCARTHY: It's completely unprecedented ...your heart breaks for the parents of the children who were killed here. But you have to remember that the person who actually did the shooting got treated as an adult and was sentenced to life in prison. So it's not like the system didn't carry out law enforcement against the person who actually did this. It's unprecedented to hold the parents accountable to something that they obviously didn't plan, agree to participate in. I frankly just don't think that this is what the criminal justice system is for. I think the criminal justice system mainly should be reserved for intentional wrongs. And I think it's more troubling here because Michigan actually attempted to or proposed passing child access prevention laws, which would prevent – which would make it a crime for parents to negligently allow their children to have access to firearms. And the legislature wouldn't pass that. So what happened here is the prosecutor made up a crime on the fly that the legislature had not opted to pass.
It's a Pandora's box. You're extending the criminal law to people who didn't actually commit the crimes.
@George-K said in Crumbley's parents charged with involuntary manslaughter:
15 years
ANDY MCCARTHY: It's completely unprecedented ...your heart breaks for the parents of the children who were killed here. But you have to remember that the person who actually did the shooting got treated as an adult and was sentenced to life in prison. So it's not like the system didn't carry out law enforcement against the person who actually did this. It's unprecedented to hold the parents accountable to something that they obviously didn't plan, agree to participate in. I frankly just don't think that this is what the criminal justice system is for. I think the criminal justice system mainly should be reserved for intentional wrongs. And I think it's more troubling here because Michigan actually attempted to or proposed passing child access prevention laws, which would prevent – which would make it a crime for parents to negligently allow their children to have access to firearms. And the legislature wouldn't pass that. So what happened here is the prosecutor made up a crime on the fly that the legislature had not opted to pass.
It's a Pandora's box. You're extending the criminal law to people who didn't actually commit the crimes.
I'm not an expert, but this type of "law extension" isn't new. There is liability (albeit, maybe civil?) if parents, for example, have a bunch of kids over, watch them get drunk, then a kid kills someone on the way home with their car.
In the case above, from what I recall the facts were pretty damning. The kid had mental issues (journal entries, voices, etc) that the parents very much knew about. They bought him a gun. They were brought in to school a few days after giving him the gun and were shown drawings of him shooting his classmates. The parents for some reason didn't tell anyone THEY JUST GAVE HIM A GUN. A few hours later, the kid takes out the gun and shoots students.
I have no problem with the involuntary culpability of these parents. It's a good way to help reduce gun violence... make the parents responsible for proper secure storage of firearms.
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@George-K said in Crumbley's parents charged with involuntary manslaughter:
15 years
ANDY MCCARTHY: It's completely unprecedented ...your heart breaks for the parents of the children who were killed here. But you have to remember that the person who actually did the shooting got treated as an adult and was sentenced to life in prison. So it's not like the system didn't carry out law enforcement against the person who actually did this. It's unprecedented to hold the parents accountable to something that they obviously didn't plan, agree to participate in. I frankly just don't think that this is what the criminal justice system is for. I think the criminal justice system mainly should be reserved for intentional wrongs. And I think it's more troubling here because Michigan actually attempted to or proposed passing child access prevention laws, which would prevent – which would make it a crime for parents to negligently allow their children to have access to firearms. And the legislature wouldn't pass that. So what happened here is the prosecutor made up a crime on the fly that the legislature had not opted to pass.
It's a Pandora's box. You're extending the criminal law to people who didn't actually commit the crimes.
I'm not an expert, but this type of "law extension" isn't new. There is liability (albeit, maybe civil?) if parents, for example, have a bunch of kids over, watch them get drunk, then a kid kills someone on the way home with their car.
In the case above, from what I recall the facts were pretty damning. The kid had mental issues (journal entries, voices, etc) that the parents very much knew about. They bought him a gun. They were brought in to school a few days after giving him the gun and were shown drawings of him shooting his classmates. The parents for some reason didn't tell anyone THEY JUST GAVE HIM A GUN. A few hours later, the kid takes out the gun and shoots students.
I have no problem with the involuntary culpability of these parents. It's a good way to help reduce gun violence... make the parents responsible for proper secure storage of firearms.
@89th said in Crumbley's parents charged with involuntary manslaughter:
It's a Pandora's box. You're extending the criminal law to people who didn't actually commit the crimes.
People have been prosecuted in the past for murder even though they didn't actually pull the trigger, but took part in a robbery where a murder took place, for example. The way these parents acted with their clearly highly troubled child is incomprehensible. I don't see how they couldn't be held responsible.
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@George-K said in Crumbley's parents charged with involuntary manslaughter:
You're extending the criminal law to people who didn't actually commit the crimes.
They do it a lot with drugs. Someone who was the original drug seller can be charged with murder if they drug taker overdoses.
@taiwan_girl said in Crumbley's parents charged with involuntary manslaughter:
@George-K said in Crumbley's parents charged with involuntary manslaughter:
You're extending the criminal law to people who didn't actually commit the crimes.
They do it a lot with drugs. Someone who was the original drug seller can be charged with murder if they drug taker overdoses.
My understanding is that those cases occur when the drug was laced or more potent than advertised. And even so, I fail to find equivalence.
It is very possible/probable that these parents were criminally negligent and deserving of prosecution. The question is what charges are appropriate.
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Definition of involuntary manslaughter
Involuntary manslaughter is the unintended killing of a person while committing a crime, or acting in a reckless or negligent manner. This type of homicide is committed without malice or intent, even accidentally, and is considered a less serious crime than murder.
I can see where this fits the parents. And I can see how this definition would fit someone selling drugs. In both cases, they did not intentionally try to kill someone, and did not plan for someone to die, but their actions had the result of someone dying.
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My sympathy metre for the perp’s parents checked out long ago particularly when it was made public that they had been called to the school the very day of the shooting and chose not to do anything about their disturbed teenager. That they also provided the means for said mentally disturbed teen to terrorize and murder his classmates and teachers, leads to me to total apathy as to their well being for their life in prison and beyond.
I didn’t sense much in the way of remorse expressed by either guilty as charged parent, though I did however sense a fair amount of self justification and attempts at hand washing other day before the sentencing was handed down.
