"You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine."
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And this shows the root of the problem. He would say one thing, then say the opposite later. Over and over. From "This will never be a pandemic" to "I always knew this would be a pandemic". From "people should stay home" to "fight stay at home orders". From "this will be over soon" to "this could last years". Having a coherent message erring on the side of caution, instead of contradictory one, would've helped lower the death count.
@89th said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
And this shows the root of the problem. He would say one thing, then say the opposite later. Over and over. From "This will never be a pandemic" to "I always knew this would be a pandemic". From "people should stay home" to "fight stay at home orders". From "this will be over soon" to "this could last years". Having a coherent message erring on the side of caution, instead of contradictory one, would've helped lower the death count.
Given that the smartest people in the world were at that time just barely learning how to collect data, and still today are having trouble collecting comprehensive data it is at best speculation to say that anything he might have done would help raise or lower the death count.
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@Copper yes those statements were true and EXACTLY the type of myopic message that delayed the seriously positive impact of social distancing that was only advocated for much later.
And yes, absolutely my position is speculation, although it's hard to think having a coherent message erring on the side of caution would've raised the death count.
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@Copper yes those statements were true and EXACTLY the type of myopic message that delayed the seriously positive impact of social distancing that was only advocated for much later.
And yes, absolutely my position is speculation, although it's hard to think having a coherent message erring on the side of caution would've raised the death count.
@89th said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
@Copper yes those statements were true and EXACTLY the type of myopic message that delayed the seriously positive impact of social distancing that was only advocated for much later.
And yes, absolutely my position is speculation, although it's hard to think having a coherent message erring on the side of caution would've raised the death count.
Caution does not have a universal definition.
Caution that favors saving lives over preserving the economy could be considered reckless behavior.
Even now, some lives could probably be preserved temporarily by shutting down all business for several more months. This would be reckless.
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@89th said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
Examples of what? All I've said from the start was had Trump taken this more seriously and acted earlier (even by a day, let alone a few weeks), we would've likely seen fewer deaths, based on science/math/statistics. No one, and especially you, have said where that is an incorrect statement.
This is from The Federalist, but it is very hard to find a completely unbiased list, so feel free to refute:
The leftist national media incessantly reports that the spread of the coronavirus is, well, President Trump’s fault. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, always good for the most incendiary and least helpful comments in any difficult situation, said on Sunday, “[T]he president — his denial at the beginning was deadly.”
Then in Joe Biden’s latest effort to be relevant, his campaign has released an ad attacking President Trump for not being sufficiently responsive to the threats of the coronavirus from the “beginning.”
Here is a key fact: In the beginning, China lied. People died. Although the first case of the coronavirus was reported in Wuhan, China in early December 2019, the Chinese authorities continued through January 2020 to downplay the potential for the disease to spread.
The World Health Organization (WHO) reinforced China’s falsehoods, saying on Jan. 14 that “Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in Wuhan, China.” This was five to six weeks after the opposite was confirmed to be the case in Wuhan.
Biden’s supposed chronicle of Trump administration failures derides the president’s statement on Jan. 22, saying, “We have it totally under control, it is one person, coming in from China…” What was actually happening in the United States on Jan. 22? It was one person coming in from China. And the U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) had yet to confirm the human-to-human spread of the virus.
So, what did we know? When did we know it?
On Jan. 17, the CDC and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) announced that American citizens returning from travel-restricted countries were being rerouted to specific airports, where they would be screened and isolated. CDC on that day also stated that, “based on current information, the risk from 2019-nCoV to the American public is currently deemed to be low.”
Japan, South Korea, and Thailand reported their first cases of novel coronavirus on Jan. 20.
On Jan. 21, the first case of coronavirus in the United States was reported, of a man who had traveled from Wuhan, China. That is the case President Trump referred to the next day
The Biden ad skips from Jan. 22 to Feb. 27, ignoring crucial developments during that time period.
Jan. 24: The CDC confirmed the second U.S. case of coronavirus, adding again that “based on what we know right now, the immediate risk to America remains low.”
Jan. 28: The WHO published another statement about the coronavirus, with a photograph and headline saying: “WHO, China leaders discuss next steps in battle against coronavirus outbreak.” Pictured are WHO Director-General Dr. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus in Beijing with Chinese President Xi Jinping. According to the release, “The WHO delegation highly appreciated the actions China has implemented in response to the outbreak, its speed in identifying the virus and openness to sharing information with WHO and other countries.”
Think about that: On Jan. 28, the WHO praised China for its “speed and openness” in dealing with the virus. The same day, President Trump expanded U.S. airport screenings to identify travelers showing symptoms and instituted mandatory quarantines.
On Jan. 30, the WHO declared a global health emergency of international concern.
On Jan. 30, the CDC confirmed publicly for the first time the person-to-person spread of Wuhan virus and applauded WHO’s decision. That day, the president created the White House Coronavirus Task Force to coordinate efforts regarding this new disease.
The next day, Jan. 31, the president declared coronavirus a U.S. public health emergency and issued the ban on travel between the United States and China. On that same day, the Senate voted on the production of additional documents in the impeachment trial of President Trump. Campaigning in Iowa that day, Biden criticized President Trump’s China travel ban, saying during an Iowa campaign event, “This is no time for Donald Trump’s record of hysteria and xenophobia.”
Feb. 4: The White House directed the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to step up coronavirus diagnostic testing procedures.
Feb. 5: The CDC issued a public statement saying, “While we continue to believe the immediate risk of 2019nCoV exposure to the general public is low, CDC is undertaking measures to help keep that risk low.”
Feb. 18: The CDC reaffirmed that the “risk to Americans from coronavirus is low.”
Feb. 20: The administration raised travel warnings to their highest level for Japan and South Korea.
It was not until Feb. 26 that the first case of suspected local transmission in the United States was announced by the CDC. President Trump that day named Vice President Pence to lead the Coronavirus Task Force. The next day, Feb. 27, Pence named Dr. Deborah Birx to serve as the White House Coronavirus Response Coordinator.
On Feb. 29, the first death from the coronavirus was recorded in the United States. On that date, President Trump halted travel with Iran.
On March 11, the WHO declared coronavirus a worldwide pandemic. The next day, on March 12, President Trump imposed travel restrictions on Europe and elsewhere. Biden criticized that decision also.
Then, on March 13, President Trump declared a national emergency.
If Pelosi believes the president should have done something at the beginning, when exactly does she think was the ‘beginning’? Was it during the impeachment proceedings that Pelosi instigated? Should Pelosi bear some responsibility for what she perceives as the president’s failure to focus on the coronavirus back in January?
The single most important step taken by President Trump was his closing of U.S. travel with China, which happened on Jan. 31, something the president reminds us at every briefing.
He’s right, but what he doesn’t say is he made that decision at a time the CDC was assuring us the risk to America was low, the WHO was covering for China, Democrats were trying to impeach the president, and Biden was attacking the decision as xenophobic.
It is impossible to overestimate the number of American lives saved by that momentous decision by President Trump on January 31. And no media or Pelosi false narratives or phony Biden campaign ad can change the truth about the real chronology of the coronavirus.
@Jolly said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
If Pelosi believes the president should have done something at the beginning, when exactly does she think was the ‘beginning’?
Well, it certainly wasn't on Feb 24th, when she advised people to visit Chinatown, as it was perfectly safe.
I wonder how many lives were lost and how many more cases were positive as a result of this advice????
Link to videoIt also seems to me that around that timeframe, New York mayor, Big Bird was telling people to go out and eat and enjoy themselves.
But nobody listens to them, right? Cause they're not the President.
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And this shows the root of the problem. He would say one thing, then say the opposite later. Over and over. From "This will never be a pandemic" to "I always knew this would be a pandemic". From "people should stay home" to "fight stay at home orders". From "this will be over soon" to "this could last years". Having a coherent message erring on the side of caution, instead of contradictory one, would've helped lower the death count.
@89th said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
And this shows the root of the problem. He would say one thing, then say the opposite later. Over and over. From "This will never be a pandemic" to "I always knew this would be a pandemic". From "people should stay home" to "fight stay at home orders". From "this will be over soon" to "this could last years". Having a coherent message erring on the side of caution, instead of contradictory one, would've helped lower the death count.
You keep repeating the same thing over. Repeating it doesn't make it relevant.
As the old saw goes, "Never pay attention to what a politician says; pay attention to what he does."
Or, in this case, what you claim he didn't do.
What specific action should Trump have taken?
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I'll chime in here with the preface that my key criticism of Trump is that he's just not intellectually up to the job of governing. I also often argue that the role of the President in governing the U.S. is much more limited than people act like it is.
It's interesting that the argument now is - "well, the President actually can't do much here." Convenient - but I don't disagree that much. Powers to carry out specific actions are limited, but there is massive opportunity and responsibility to rally the country.
Now, on what he could do. It's a litany of tactical things that point to the fact that the white house didn't take this serious enough until pretty late. Example - PPE:
https://apnews.com/090600c299a8cf07f5b44d92534856bcAfter the first alarms sounded in early January that an outbreak of a novel coronavirus in China might ignite a global pandemic, the Trump administration squandered nearly two months that could have been used to bolster the federal stockpile of critically needed medical supplies and equipment.
A review of federal purchasing contracts by The Associated Press shows federal agencies largely waited until mid-March to begin placing bulk orders of N95 respirator masks, mechanical ventilators and other equipment needed by front-line health care workers.
You can argue whose fault it was that the stockpile was low (a good case to be made for Trump, a reasonable one for Obama). But why wait until, I think it was March-21 to place orders for N-95 masks?
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@George-K said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
And how did that demand for ventilators work out? Was there a shortage?
George - is your implicit argument here that we didn't need as many ventilators as we thought - so what a waste of time and effort? Similarly PPE isn't that important, it was/is going to be a waste of time anyways?
I don't want to put words in your mouth, so help me unpack that.
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@George-K
Many times what the President says will have a greater impact than what he does. Words are actions, in that sense.Like it or not, he sets the tone for how many citizens will treat the seriousness of a potential pandemic threat as well as for how many state and local officials might respond with local orders.
So whether it be through a signed action (e.g., executive order) or through a coherent message of caution and communication of the short term pain but long term benefits of shutting things down sooner rather than later, there are many things Trump could've done (and said) that would've enabled citizens and local governments to take action sooner than they did...which would've helped prevent some of the deaths we have now seen.
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I'll chime in here with the preface that my key criticism of Trump is that he's just not intellectually up to the job of governing. I also often argue that the role of the President in governing the U.S. is much more limited than people act like it is.
It's interesting that the argument now is - "well, the President actually can't do much here." Convenient - but I don't disagree that much. Powers to carry out specific actions are limited, but there is massive opportunity and responsibility to rally the country.
Now, on what he could do. It's a litany of tactical things that point to the fact that the white house didn't take this serious enough until pretty late. Example - PPE:
https://apnews.com/090600c299a8cf07f5b44d92534856bcAfter the first alarms sounded in early January that an outbreak of a novel coronavirus in China might ignite a global pandemic, the Trump administration squandered nearly two months that could have been used to bolster the federal stockpile of critically needed medical supplies and equipment.
A review of federal purchasing contracts by The Associated Press shows federal agencies largely waited until mid-March to begin placing bulk orders of N95 respirator masks, mechanical ventilators and other equipment needed by front-line health care workers.
You can argue whose fault it was that the stockpile was low (a good case to be made for Trump, a reasonable one for Obama). But why wait until, I think it was March-21 to place orders for N-95 masks?
@xenon said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
I'll chime in here with the preface that my key criticism of Trump is that he's just not intellectually up to the job of governing.
Well... up to the point where China and WHO fucked us in the ass, he was doing a pretty damn good job in my book.
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@xenon said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
I'll chime in here with the preface that my key criticism of Trump is that he's just not intellectually up to the job of governing.
Well... up to the point where China and WHO fucked us in the ass, he was doing a pretty damn good job in my book.
@Improviso said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
@xenon said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
I'll chime in here with the preface that my key criticism of Trump is that he's just not intellectually up to the job of governing.
Well... up to the point where China and WHO fucked us in the ass, he was doing a pretty damn good job in my book.
It's curious - he was praising Xi pretty hard until the end of Feb. On transparency - lol. Raise your hands if you believed China was being transparent at any point.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/15/trump-china-coronavirus-188736
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George - your premise that the things he says don’t have real world effects and can therefore be swept aside seems pretty obviously wrong.
As for actions, the administration fucked up testing, was late in treating equipment procurement as the emergency it was (and is) and remains insufficiently prepared for reopening. He lives too much by the news cycle to ever get ahead of this.
Let me turn the question around - what part of our covid response did we really get right?
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My main problem isn't with what Trump's administration has done, it's been his appalling communication.
He's contradicted himself, Tweeted really stupid things that undermine his own government's policies, and during some of the briefings has gone on truly bizarre flights of fantasy. This stuff has encouraged people who think this is all some deep-state conspiracy to do Christ-alone-knows-what. The single most important job you have in a briefing is to be clear. This isn't an election rally, he's supposed to be addressing a national crisis.
And no, I don't think he's done a fantastic job with his actions either, but to be fair to him, most countries have fucked this up.
Yes, I think Biden's shit as well, so don't bother.
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@George-K said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
And how did that demand for ventilators work out? Was there a shortage?
George - is your implicit argument here that we didn't need as many ventilators as we thought - so what a waste of time and effort? Similarly PPE isn't that important, it was/is going to be a waste of time anyways?
I don't want to put words in your mouth, so help me unpack that.
George - is your implicit argument here that we didn't need as many ventilators as we thought - so what a waste of time and effort? Similarly PPE isn't that important, it was/is going to be a waste of time anyways?
I don't want to put words in your mouth, so help me unpack that.
I didn't say anything about PPE, to be sure. Perhaps someone who has a better understanding of how these contracts work can tell me if this was truly negligence on the part of the Obama/Trump administrations in not securing them vs them not being available (see Improv's comments above).
As to ventilators, Cuomo claimed that NY would need, iirc, 40,000 ventilators (the number might be wrong, but it's the correct order of magnitude). And yet, lo and behold, at the beginning of May, New York was shipping them elsewhere. They came nowhere close to needing 40K. The peak need in early April was ... 5,000.
As to projecting other needs, how did that need for 140K ICU beds work out? New York needed 23,000.
[snark] Of course, those needs were mitigated by having about 5,000 die in nursing homes by being exposed. [/snark]
The future's hard to predict, isn't it?