The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread
-
@horace said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
The people who find crypto valuable find it so because they trust the scarcity and ownership traceability, which are enforced by the logical validity of the algorithm. And they like the fact that nothing about that scarcity depends on the existence of any given government and its ability to impose violence. But it requires agreement between this group of people who deem it valuable. It's not beautiful or physically impressive like gold or diamonds, so that agreement might be on more shaky ground.
Yes, I see that as a value add. I assume that the idea of crypto is that it cannot be devalued or diluted by inflation or printing more money (as governments seems to do irresponsibly) is part of the attraction?
@ivorythumper said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
I assume that the idea of crypto is that it cannot be devalued or diluted by inflation or printing more money (as governments seems to do irresponsibly) is part of the attraction?
Yes. The money supply is completely predictable and cannot be changed, unless a majority of the users agree on a change (whereby "majority" can mean things like "majority of money" or "majority of computing power" or even simply "majority of nodes"). Sometimes this can lead to so-called "hard forks". For instance, Bitcoin Classic was the result of a Bitcoin hard fork.
That said, for some the real attraction lies in second and third generation blockchains which offer "smart contracts", which opens up a whole new world of financial possibilities that don't exist right now.
-
@ivorythumper said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
I assume that the idea of crypto is that it cannot be devalued or diluted by inflation or printing more money (as governments seems to do irresponsibly) is part of the attraction?
Yes. The money supply is completely predictable and cannot be changed, unless a majority of the users agree on a change (whereby "majority" can mean things like "majority of money" or "majority of computing power" or even simply "majority of nodes"). Sometimes this can lead to so-called "hard forks". For instance, Bitcoin Classic was the result of a Bitcoin hard fork.
That said, for some the real attraction lies in second and third generation blockchains which offer "smart contracts", which opens up a whole new world of financial possibilities that don't exist right now.
@klaus said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
That said, for some the real attraction lies in second and third generation blockchains which offer "smart contracts", which opens up a whole new world of financial possibilities that don't exist right now.
I think Bitcoin "digital gold" is the primary use case. A store of value that doesn't depend on any government, is rules based and doesn't require trust in any institution. I find gold to be a bit irrational, and in the same vein bitcoin. But it's a proven model.
The rest of this stuff about smart contracts - I don't know if it works because there are really no digital assets that are interesting?
People think of home deeds being digital in the future - but there's no way to reliably link a physical asset like a home to a digital smart contract without some trusted party in between. Since you need a trusted 3rd party - there's no real use for blockchain (from my view).
-
@klaus said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
That said, for some the real attraction lies in second and third generation blockchains which offer "smart contracts", which opens up a whole new world of financial possibilities that don't exist right now.
I think Bitcoin "digital gold" is the primary use case. A store of value that doesn't depend on any government, is rules based and doesn't require trust in any institution. I find gold to be a bit irrational, and in the same vein bitcoin. But it's a proven model.
The rest of this stuff about smart contracts - I don't know if it works because there are really no digital assets that are interesting?
People think of home deeds being digital in the future - but there's no way to reliably link a physical asset like a home to a digital smart contract without some trusted party in between. Since you need a trusted 3rd party - there's no real use for blockchain (from my view).
@xenon said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
Since you need a trusted 3rd party - there's no real use for blockchain
These third parties do already exist for "on chain" versions of US Dollar. Also, at least for information there's the idea of oracles as realized by Chainlink.
Let's take a simple example: Distributed exchanges. Let's say you want to buy AAPL and pay with US dollar. Even though you need some kind of trusted 3rd party for both, you could still make a direct trade with somebody else without an exchange involved and without any risk of the other party not sticking to their part of the deal. And of course you can make the contract arbitrarily complex ("if the weather on May 3rd is such and such and the price of orange juice is smaller than ..., then ...."), while still maintaining the guarantee that the contract will be executed no matter what.
-
@xenon said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
Since you need a trusted 3rd party - there's no real use for blockchain
These third parties do already exist for "on chain" versions of US Dollar. Also, at least for information there's the idea of oracles as realized by Chainlink.
Let's take a simple example: Distributed exchanges. Let's say you want to buy AAPL and pay with US dollar. Even though you need some kind of trusted 3rd party for both, you could still make a direct trade with somebody else without an exchange involved and without any risk of the other party not sticking to their part of the deal. And of course you can make the contract arbitrarily complex ("if the weather on May 3rd is such and such and the price of orange juice is smaller than ..., then ...."), while still maintaining the guarantee that the contract will be executed no matter what.
@klaus said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
@xenon said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
Since you need a trusted 3rd party - there's no real use for blockchain
These third parties do already exist for "on chain" versions of US Dollar. Also, at least for information there's the idea of oracles as realized by Chainlink.
Let's take a simple example: Distributed exchanges. Let's say you want to buy AAPL and pay with US dollar. Even though you need some kind of trusted 3rd party for both, you could still make a direct trade with somebody else without an exchange involved and without any risk of the other party not sticking to their part of the deal. And of course you can make the contract arbitrarily complex ("if the weather on May 3rd is such and such and the price of orange juice is smaller than ..., then ...."), while still maintaining the guarantee that the contract will be executed no matter what.
Interesting examples. But they’re still just aggregating digital data (weather reports, security prices, etc.) into a usable format on a blockchain. It has to be mass-verifiable information because the “average” response is used as truth.
Securities exchanges and commodity exchanges already track that sort of data. I’m not sure if trust is really an issue in those realms.
I’m not sure why I would want to trade aapl stock over a decentralized exchange. You’d also still need some sort of physical entity to register their ownership of the securities.
The security itself would have to be issued as a digital token for this to really work.
The harder use cases are verifying a unique and specific physical condition being met.
How do you solve the oracle problem for a home purchase or making sure a plumber fulfilled his end of the bargain?
-
@klaus said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
@xenon said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
Since you need a trusted 3rd party - there's no real use for blockchain
These third parties do already exist for "on chain" versions of US Dollar. Also, at least for information there's the idea of oracles as realized by Chainlink.
Let's take a simple example: Distributed exchanges. Let's say you want to buy AAPL and pay with US dollar. Even though you need some kind of trusted 3rd party for both, you could still make a direct trade with somebody else without an exchange involved and without any risk of the other party not sticking to their part of the deal. And of course you can make the contract arbitrarily complex ("if the weather on May 3rd is such and such and the price of orange juice is smaller than ..., then ...."), while still maintaining the guarantee that the contract will be executed no matter what.
Interesting examples. But they’re still just aggregating digital data (weather reports, security prices, etc.) into a usable format on a blockchain. It has to be mass-verifiable information because the “average” response is used as truth.
Securities exchanges and commodity exchanges already track that sort of data. I’m not sure if trust is really an issue in those realms.
I’m not sure why I would want to trade aapl stock over a decentralized exchange. You’d also still need some sort of physical entity to register their ownership of the securities.
The security itself would have to be issued as a digital token for this to really work.
The harder use cases are verifying a unique and specific physical condition being met.
How do you solve the oracle problem for a home purchase or making sure a plumber fulfilled his end of the bargain?
@xenon said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
I’m not sure why I would want to trade aapl stock over a decentralized exchange.
To save transaction costs. Or because a government closed down access to exchanges. Or because the situation in a country might be such that you can't trust an exchange.
When considering the relative advantages of crypto stuff, I think one has to have a global perspective and also consider environments and circumstances very different from that in the West.
-
@klaus said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
@xenon said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
Since you need a trusted 3rd party - there's no real use for blockchain
These third parties do already exist for "on chain" versions of US Dollar. Also, at least for information there's the idea of oracles as realized by Chainlink.
Let's take a simple example: Distributed exchanges. Let's say you want to buy AAPL and pay with US dollar. Even though you need some kind of trusted 3rd party for both, you could still make a direct trade with somebody else without an exchange involved and without any risk of the other party not sticking to their part of the deal. And of course you can make the contract arbitrarily complex ("if the weather on May 3rd is such and such and the price of orange juice is smaller than ..., then ...."), while still maintaining the guarantee that the contract will be executed no matter what.
Interesting examples. But they’re still just aggregating digital data (weather reports, security prices, etc.) into a usable format on a blockchain. It has to be mass-verifiable information because the “average” response is used as truth.
Securities exchanges and commodity exchanges already track that sort of data. I’m not sure if trust is really an issue in those realms.
I’m not sure why I would want to trade aapl stock over a decentralized exchange. You’d also still need some sort of physical entity to register their ownership of the securities.
The security itself would have to be issued as a digital token for this to really work.
The harder use cases are verifying a unique and specific physical condition being met.
How do you solve the oracle problem for a home purchase or making sure a plumber fulfilled his end of the bargain?
@xenon said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
How do you solve the oracle problem for a home purchase or making sure a plumber fulfilled his end of the bargain?
Yeah, it's hard. A home purchase might work, if there's a legal framework that supports it. The plumber is more difficult. You could theoretically have decentralized and independent judges provided as an oracle, but it would be difficult to implement this in an efficient way.
-
Okay, I put the money I had set aside for one of Karla’s Christmas Gifts on Solana. Let’s see if she is getting new EarPods, a diamond necklace, or a lovely card for Christmas…
@lufins-dad said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
et’s see if she is getting new EarPods, a diamond necklace, or a lovely card for Christmas…
So Karla really liked the card she got...
Seriously? The money I put into long-term holds that are supposed to be pretty secure. I had lost about 30% over the two months but am closing quickly towards being in the black again. Volatile is correct...
On the other side, two weeks ago I put in $10 to just have some fun poking around at the day trading end of it. Trying to time the dips and the swings of the currencies (especially the new ones). The idea is to try and gain 10% plus the transaction fee back from every trade. I'm not quite hitting that target because the transaction fees seem to be fairly high for the smaller amounts (Transferring $11.50 from BICO to POLY cost me $.40) I have to assume that there are minimum transaction fees that apply? At any rate, I've got that $10 up to $16.80 over the last two weeks, so that's kind of fun... Just 295 successful transactions to go...
The Brad
-
I am like @xenon . Just dont get the purpose/value of crypto. When a country like mainland China decides to crack down on crypto currency, it doesn't seem like it is as "free" and out of the reach of governments as people like to believe.
-
@lufins-dad said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
et’s see if she is getting new EarPods, a diamond necklace, or a lovely card for Christmas…
So Karla really liked the card she got...
Seriously? The money I put into long-term holds that are supposed to be pretty secure. I had lost about 30% over the two months but am closing quickly towards being in the black again. Volatile is correct...
On the other side, two weeks ago I put in $10 to just have some fun poking around at the day trading end of it. Trying to time the dips and the swings of the currencies (especially the new ones). The idea is to try and gain 10% plus the transaction fee back from every trade. I'm not quite hitting that target because the transaction fees seem to be fairly high for the smaller amounts (Transferring $11.50 from BICO to POLY cost me $.40) I have to assume that there are minimum transaction fees that apply? At any rate, I've got that $10 up to $16.80 over the last two weeks, so that's kind of fun... Just 295 successful transactions to go...
@lufins-dad said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
On the other side, two weeks ago I put in $10 to just have some fun poking around at the day trading end of it. Trying to time the dips and the swings of the currencies (especially the new ones). The idea is to try and gain 10% plus the transaction fee back from every trade. I'm not quite hitting that target because the transaction fees seem to be fairly high for the smaller amounts (Transferring $11.50 from BICO to POLY cost me $.40) I have to assume that there are minimum transaction fees that apply? At any rate, I've got that $10 up to $16.80 over the last two weeks, so that's kind of fun... Just 295 successful transactions to go...
Are you doing all these trading in a tax-excempt or tax-deferred account? If not, presumably every trade is a tax event and reporting 300+ tax events would be non-trivial. In any case, good luck with your trading.
-
-
@aqua-letifer said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
Interesting thread.
I must say that that thread makes me like crypto more, not less.
I believe that cryptocurrency is an inherently right-wing, hyper-capitalistic technology built primarily to amplify the wealth of its proponents through a combination of tax avoidance, diminished regulatory oversight and artificially enforced scarcity.
Hell yes, bring it on!
-
@aqua-letifer said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
Interesting thread.
I must say that that thread makes me like crypto more, not less.
I believe that cryptocurrency is an inherently right-wing, hyper-capitalistic technology built primarily to amplify the wealth of its proponents through a combination of tax avoidance, diminished regulatory oversight and artificially enforced scarcity.
Hell yes, bring it on!
@klaus said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
@aqua-letifer said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
Interesting thread.
I must say that that thread makes me like crypto more, not less.
I believe that cryptocurrency is an inherently right-wing, hyper-capitalistic technology built primarily to amplify the wealth of its proponents through a combination of tax avoidance, diminished regulatory oversight and artificially enforced scarcity.
Hell yes, bring it on!
What's not to like?
-
@klaus said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
@aqua-letifer said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
Interesting thread.
I must say that that thread makes me like crypto more, not less.
I believe that cryptocurrency is an inherently right-wing, hyper-capitalistic technology built primarily to amplify the wealth of its proponents through a combination of tax avoidance, diminished regulatory oversight and artificially enforced scarcity.
Hell yes, bring it on!
What's not to like?
@mik said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
@klaus said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
@aqua-letifer said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
Interesting thread.
I must say that that thread makes me like crypto more, not less.
I believe that cryptocurrency is an inherently right-wing, hyper-capitalistic technology built primarily to amplify the wealth of its proponents through a combination of tax avoidance, diminished regulatory oversight and artificially enforced scarcity.
Hell yes, bring it on!
What's not to like?
Ignoring this guy's histrionics, my thing is, it works in ways we haven't grappled with for any extended period, so there may be some pitfalls.
"What do you mean, Aqua, buying on margin is a great idea!"
Please love yourself.
-
If you like the way the Euro works or the way the gold standard works, you'll like the way crypto works. It's like those, but even moreso.
Countries would lose control over their own currency (and to be sure, some manage it very poorly).
Americans should be most wary though - since they currently enjoy having the world's reserve currency.
-
If you like the way the Euro works or the way the gold standard works, you'll like the way crypto works. It's like those, but even moreso.
Countries would lose control over their own currency (and to be sure, some manage it very poorly).
Americans should be most wary though - since they currently enjoy having the world's reserve currency.
@xenon said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
If you like the way the Euro works or the way the gold standard works, you'll like the way crypto works. It's like those, but even moreso.
That sounds so ridiculous.
I'm taking your word for it, but it sounds like you're saying, "crypto's great! It's like money, but better!" -
If you like the way the Euro works or the way the gold standard works, you'll like the way crypto works. It's like those, but even moreso.
Countries would lose control over their own currency (and to be sure, some manage it very poorly).
Americans should be most wary though - since they currently enjoy having the world's reserve currency.
-
@xenon said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
If you like the way the Euro works or the way the gold standard works, you'll like the way crypto works. It's like those, but even moreso.
That sounds so ridiculous.
I'm taking your word for it, but it sounds like you're saying, "crypto's great! It's like money, but better!"@aqua-letifer said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
@xenon said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
If you like the way the Euro works or the way the gold standard works, you'll like the way crypto works. It's like those, but even moreso.
That sounds so ridiculous.
I'm taking your word for it, but it sounds like you're saying, "crypto's great! It's like money, but better!"Well - I personally don't like the way the Euro works or the gold standard.
But essentially - you're turning a currency more into a "force of nature" - people have less control over it.
What I'm saying is that crypto takes away even more control from humans.
I think the guy you linked was essentially saying the same thing.
Question is - do we want humans to control and have agency over their the currency?
-
@mik said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
@klaus said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
@aqua-letifer said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
Interesting thread.
I must say that that thread makes me like crypto more, not less.
I believe that cryptocurrency is an inherently right-wing, hyper-capitalistic technology built primarily to amplify the wealth of its proponents through a combination of tax avoidance, diminished regulatory oversight and artificially enforced scarcity.
Hell yes, bring it on!
What's not to like?
Ignoring this guy's histrionics, my thing is, it works in ways we haven't grappled with for any extended period, so there may be some pitfalls.
"What do you mean, Aqua, buying on margin is a great idea!"
@aqua-letifer said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
@mik said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
@klaus said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
@aqua-letifer said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
Interesting thread.
I must say that that thread makes me like crypto more, not less.
I believe that cryptocurrency is an inherently right-wing, hyper-capitalistic technology built primarily to amplify the wealth of its proponents through a combination of tax avoidance, diminished regulatory oversight and artificially enforced scarcity.
Hell yes, bring it on!
What's not to like?
Ignoring this guy's histrionics, my thing is, it works in ways we haven't grappled with for any extended period, so there may be some pitfalls.
"What do you mean, Aqua, buying on margin is a great idea!"
My first experience to buying on margin was the richest guy in Springfield. He lost it all on margin calls. Maade a big impression on me.
“I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill
-
@aqua-letifer said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
@xenon said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
If you like the way the Euro works or the way the gold standard works, you'll like the way crypto works. It's like those, but even moreso.
That sounds so ridiculous.
I'm taking your word for it, but it sounds like you're saying, "crypto's great! It's like money, but better!"Well - I personally don't like the way the Euro works or the gold standard.
But essentially - you're turning a currency more into a "force of nature" - people have less control over it.
What I'm saying is that crypto takes away even more control from humans.
I think the guy you linked was essentially saying the same thing.
Question is - do we want humans to control and have agency over their the currency?
@xenon said in The Bitcoin/Crypto Thread:
Question is - do we want humans to control and have agency over their the currency?
Depends on the human.
