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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. Third card, fourth shot

Third card, fourth shot

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  • KlausK Klaus

    An impressive illustration of what it means to take immunosuppressants, especially if you consider that similar issues likely arise with actual viruses that are not vaccines.

    JollyJ Offline
    JollyJ Offline
    Jolly
    wrote on last edited by
    #15

    @klaus said in Third card, fourth shot:

    An impressive illustration of what it means to take immunosuppressants, especially if you consider that similar issues likely arise with actual viruses that are not vaccines.

    You, sir, are right.

    “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

    Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

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    • jodiJ jodi

      How are you feeling today?

      JollyJ Offline
      JollyJ Offline
      Jolly
      wrote on last edited by
      #16

      @jodi said in Third card, fourth shot:

      How are you feeling today?

      I hope he feels like shit.

      “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

      Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

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      • jodiJ Offline
        jodiJ Offline
        jodi
        wrote on last edited by
        #17

        😄

        1 Reply Last reply
        • jon-nycJ Offline
          jon-nycJ Offline
          jon-nyc
          wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
          #18

          Alas I feel fine except for some arm soreness.

          The proof will be in the pudding assay. In two weeks.

          "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
          -Cormac McCarthy

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          • jon-nycJ Offline
            jon-nycJ Offline
            jon-nyc
            wrote on last edited by
            #19

            I’ve scheduled 2 antibody tests. One will be two weeks from the shot. The next is 3.5 weeks out, just in time to get the results before the 5th 2nd shot is scheduled.

            "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
            -Cormac McCarthy

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            • LuFins DadL Offline
              LuFins DadL Offline
              LuFins Dad
              wrote on last edited by
              #20

              Any word on whether certain vaccines work better for immunosuppressed individuals?

              The Brad

              1 Reply Last reply
              • jon-nycJ Offline
                jon-nycJ Offline
                jon-nyc
                wrote on last edited by
                #21

                The Moderna had a better antibody response in the Hopkins study. I don’t know that the T and B cell response has been compared specifically in transplant patients but the Pfizer has a better one in general.

                "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
                -Cormac McCarthy

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                • George KG Offline
                  George KG Offline
                  George K
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #22

                  https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2111462?query=featured_home

                  Randomized Trial of a Third Dose of mRNA-1273 Vaccine in Transplant Recipients

                  To the Editor:

                  In organ-transplant recipients, the standard two-dose vaccination strategy for coronavirus disease 2019 (Covid-19) has suboptimal immunogenicity.1 Both patients and health care providers have questioned whether a third-dose booster in transplant recipients would be safe and enhance immune response.2 We performed a double-blind, randomized, controlled trial of a third dose of mRNA-1273 vaccine (Moderna) as compared with placebo (the protocol is available with the full text of this letter at NEJM.org; ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT04885907).

                  Transplant recipients who had received two doses of mRNA-1273 were randomly assigned in a 1:1 ratio to receive either a third dose of mRNA-1273 vaccine or saline placebo 2 months after the second dose of mRNA-1273 (dosing schedule: 0, 1, and 3 months). The primary outcome was a serologic response characterized by an anti–receptor-binding domain (RBD) antibody level of at least 100 U per milliliter at month 4 (measured with an Elecsys Anti-SARS-CoV-2 immunoassay [Roche]). This outcome was prespecified and was based on the protective anti-RBD titer in a challenge study involving nonhuman primates3; it was further corroborated in a large clinical cohort as the upper boundary of the estimated level required to confer 50% protective neutralization.4 Secondary outcomes included the percent neutralization, as measured with a validated surrogate virus neutralization assay (Genscript), and the polyfunctional T-cell response (see the Supplementary Appendix, available at NEJM.org).

                  image.jpeg

                  We enrolled 120 organ-transplant recipients (Fig. S1 in the Supplementary Appendix). No patient had a previous diagnosis of Covid-19. The baseline characteristics were similar in the two groups (Table S1), as were the preintervention anti-RBD antibody levels and neutralizing antibody levels (). The median age of the patients was 66.6 years (interquartile range, 63.3 to 71.4), and the median time from transplantation to the third dose was 3.16 years (interquartile range, 1.71 to 6.12). The time from transplantation was slightly shorter in the placebo group than in the mRNA-1273 group; however, the types, doses, and levels of immunosuppression were very similar in the two groups, as were the lymphocyte counts. Covid-19 developed in 1 patient (placebo group; preinfection anti-RBD antibody level, 75 U per milliliter), and 2 patients did not provide follow-up blood specimens.

                  At month 4, an anti-RBD antibody level of at least 100 U per milliliter was present in 33 of 60 patients (55%) in the mRNA-1273 group and in 10 of 57 patients (18%) in the placebo group (relative risk, 3.1; 95% confidence interval [CI], 1.7 to 5.8; P<0.001) ( and Table S2). The changes in anti-RBD antibody level from before to after the third dose are shown in . After the third dose, the median percent virus neutralization was 71% in the mRNA-1273 group and 13% in the placebo group (95% CI for the between-group difference, 11 to 76 percentage points), and the percentage of patients above the 30% threshold for neutralizing antibody positivity was 60% and 25%, respectively (relative risk, 2.4; 95% CI, 1.5 to 4.0) ( and Table S2). Median severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)–specific T-cell counts were greater after the third dose in the mRNA-1273 group than in the placebo group (432 vs. 67 cells per 106 CD4+ T cells; 95% CI for the between-group difference, 46 to 986) (). There was a minimal polyfunctional CD8+ T-cell response in both groups. In the safety evaluation, local and systemic events were slightly more common after the third dose of mRNA-1273 than after the dose of placebo (Fig. S3), but no grade 3 or 4 events and no cases of acute rejection occurred.

                  A third dose of mRNA vaccine in transplant recipients had substantially higher immunogenicity than placebo, as determined in our analysis of both primary and secondary trial end points. This trial had short follow-up and was not powered to detect differences in clinical outcomes. We also acknowledge that the cutoff value of 100 U per milliliter for the anti-RBD antibody level is arbitrary and is not necessarily predictive of resistance to infection. A third dose was safe when risk versus benefit was considered. We note that a small subgroup of patients who received placebo did have modest increases in antibody levels (). This may reflect ongoing mRNA vaccine–induced B-cell stimulation, as recently described,5 and highlights the importance of evaluating a control group. We conclude that a third-dose booster Covid-19 vaccine should be considered, in conjunction with regulatory approval, for transplant recipients who have received two doses of mRNA-1273.

                  "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                  The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

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                  • LuFins DadL Offline
                    LuFins DadL Offline
                    LuFins Dad
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #23

                    Did they really need to run the test vs. a placebo? I don't see the benefit there. The only tests that really matters are the levels at shots 1, 2, and 3...

                    The Brad

                    jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
                    • LuFins DadL LuFins Dad

                      Did they really need to run the test vs. a placebo? I don't see the benefit there. The only tests that really matters are the levels at shots 1, 2, and 3...

                      jon-nycJ Offline
                      jon-nycJ Offline
                      jon-nyc
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #24

                      @lufins-dad You need to confirm the intervention made the difference. What if, for example, antibodies just develop more slowly in immune suppressed people?

                      "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
                      -Cormac McCarthy

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