What She Saw
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@horace said in What She Saw:
@89th said in What She Saw:
Overall a good article and read.
However, when I read this, it casted doubt on her overall view.
"I heard President Trump praise many members of Congress, but heard nothing to incite violence"
Except for these lines, right?
- these people [protesters] aren’t going to take it anymore!
- we will never give up
- we will never concede
- we will stop the steal
- we are not gonna let it happen
- we must save our democracy
- were not going to stand and let this country be destroyed (he says variations of this about 30x btw)
- people are illegally taking over our government
- if you don’t fight like hell we aren’t going to have a country anymore
Sounds a lot like the rhetoric behind the riots of 2020, which were also based on a fictitious cultural narrative. But somehow the slippery slope started right now, with Trump. I think that's strange.
I completely agree.
wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 21:13 last edited by Loki 1 Nov 2021, 21:14@89th said in What She Saw:
@horace said in What She Saw:
@89th said in What She Saw:
Overall a good article and read.
However, when I read this, it casted doubt on her overall view.
"I heard President Trump praise many members of Congress, but heard nothing to incite violence"
Except for these lines, right?
- these people [protesters] aren’t going to take it anymore!
- we will never give up
- we will never concede
- we will stop the steal
- we are not gonna let it happen
- we must save our democracy
- were not going to stand and let this country be destroyed (he says variations of this about 30x btw)
- people are illegally taking over our government
- if you don’t fight like hell we aren’t going to have a country anymore
Sounds a lot like the rhetoric behind the riots of 2020, which were also based on a fictitious cultural narrative. But somehow the slippery slope started right now, with Trump. I think that's strange.
I completely agree.
I can’t help but react to all this the same way I would the BLM and anarchist protests. Imagine what happened at the Capitol was BLM, Antifa etc... any rationalization would need to be applied equally to all protests.
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@89th said in What She Saw:
@horace said in What She Saw:
@89th said in What She Saw:
Overall a good article and read.
However, when I read this, it casted doubt on her overall view.
"I heard President Trump praise many members of Congress, but heard nothing to incite violence"
Except for these lines, right?
- these people [protesters] aren’t going to take it anymore!
- we will never give up
- we will never concede
- we will stop the steal
- we are not gonna let it happen
- we must save our democracy
- were not going to stand and let this country be destroyed (he says variations of this about 30x btw)
- people are illegally taking over our government
- if you don’t fight like hell we aren’t going to have a country anymore
Sounds a lot like the rhetoric behind the riots of 2020, which were also based on a fictitious cultural narrative. But somehow the slippery slope started right now, with Trump. I think that's strange.
I completely agree.
I can’t help but react to all this the same way I would the BLM and anarchist protests. Imagine what happened at the Capitol was BLM, Antifa etc... any rationalization would need to be applied equally to all protests.
wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 21:54 last edited by@loki said in What She Saw:
Imagine what happened at the Capitol was BLM,
Except there were several BLM protests in DC last year and none of them led to Congressmen hiding in undisclosed locations and the suspension of government.
Now it is true that a lot of property was destroyed, but hey, the Capitol invaders have that covered too.
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@loki said in What She Saw:
Imagine what happened at the Capitol was BLM,
Except there were several BLM protests in DC last year and none of them led to Congressmen hiding in undisclosed locations and the suspension of government.
Now it is true that a lot of property was destroyed, but hey, the Capitol invaders have that covered too.
wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 22:23 last edited by@aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:
Except there were several BLM protests in DC last year and none of them led to Congressmen hiding in undisclosed locations and the suspension of government.
Congressmen'sCongresspersons' lives matter.Remember during the Floyd protests when Trump was taken to a bunker and was accused of being a coward?
This was happening:
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@aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:
Except there were several BLM protests in DC last year and none of them led to Congressmen hiding in undisclosed locations and the suspension of government.
Congressmen'sCongresspersons' lives matter.Remember during the Floyd protests when Trump was taken to a bunker and was accused of being a coward?
This was happening:
wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 22:25 last edited by@george-k said in What She Saw:
Congressmen's Congresspersons' lives matter.
Remember during the Floyd protests when Trump was taken to a bunker and was accused of being a coward?
This was happening:Can we stop with all this?
George, do you honestly think:
- BLM (not Antifa, BLM) protests were worse in outcome than the Capitol invasion
- Trump is not responsible for anything that happened last Wednesday
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@george-k said in What She Saw:
Congressmen's Congresspersons' lives matter.
Remember during the Floyd protests when Trump was taken to a bunker and was accused of being a coward?
This was happening:Can we stop with all this?
George, do you honestly think:
- BLM (not Antifa, BLM) protests were worse in outcome than the Capitol invasion
- Trump is not responsible for anything that happened last Wednesday
wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 22:35 last edited by George K 1 Nov 2021, 22:36@aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:
George, do you honestly think:
- BLM (not Antifa, BLM) protests were worse in outcome than the Capitol invasion
In terms of what? Property damage? Loss of life? What do you mean "worse."
- Trump is not responsible for anything that happened last Wednesday
This is a legal question and a political one.
Legally, this is a high bar to get over.
Politically, let the chips fall where they may. Having said that, comments from
Vice-President Elect Harris. Rep. Waters, and other government officials are to be considered."Punch them in the face," Senator Tester? Really? Hillary Clinton "You can't be civil with a political party that wants to destroy what you stand for." Former AG Holder, "When they go low, we kick them." Rep. Joaquin Castro, "We fight him...in the streets."I fail to see how the ignoring of one leads to condemnation of the other.
"In the streets"
"Kick them"
"In the face"
"Protests should continue" - as DC burns.Show me how these are not incitements, and then I'll stop the whataboutism. If you can't, then, well, there you go.
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wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 22:45 last edited by
@george-k said in What She Saw:
In terms of what? Property damage? Loss of life? What do you mean "worse."
In terms of what you personally find to be most troublesome.
This is a legal question and a political one.
Well we agree there. I absolutely think the courts should be involved.
Show me how these are not incitements, and then I'll stop the whataboutism. If you can't, then, well, there you go.
I think there's a difference between publicly validating events while ignoring their destruction and violence, and trying to gin up support for overturning an election decision.
In other words, the two incidents are not at all the same. That's not shorthand for BLM gets a pass. I mean they need to be evaluated separately. The internet's full of lazy false equivocations that only perpetuate the problem.
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@george-k said in What She Saw:
In terms of what? Property damage? Loss of life? What do you mean "worse."
In terms of what you personally find to be most troublesome.
This is a legal question and a political one.
Well we agree there. I absolutely think the courts should be involved.
Show me how these are not incitements, and then I'll stop the whataboutism. If you can't, then, well, there you go.
I think there's a difference between publicly validating events while ignoring their destruction and violence, and trying to gin up support for overturning an election decision.
In other words, the two incidents are not at all the same. That's not shorthand for BLM gets a pass. I mean they need to be evaluated separately. The internet's full of lazy false equivocations that only perpetuate the problem.
wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 22:51 last edited by@aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:
- BLM (not Antifa, BLM) protests were worse in outcome than the Capitol invasion
One outcome is BLM stenciled on the back of NFL helmets
Another is the speaker calling "whiteness" the cause of the invasionIt's worse for non-BLM members
And worse for those with "whiteness"@aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:
- Trump is not responsible for anything that happened last Wednesday
Anything? That covers a lot of ground
But did he incite a riot? I don't think so.
I really don't.Would his words have caused me to invade? No.
Would the invasion have happened no matter what he said? Based on the obvious planning by the invaders, I'd say yes.
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@george-k said in What She Saw:
In terms of what? Property damage? Loss of life? What do you mean "worse."
In terms of what you personally find to be most troublesome.
This is a legal question and a political one.
Well we agree there. I absolutely think the courts should be involved.
Show me how these are not incitements, and then I'll stop the whataboutism. If you can't, then, well, there you go.
I think there's a difference between publicly validating events while ignoring their destruction and violence, and trying to gin up support for overturning an election decision.
In other words, the two incidents are not at all the same. That's not shorthand for BLM gets a pass. I mean they need to be evaluated separately. The internet's full of lazy false equivocations that only perpetuate the problem.
wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 22:53 last edited by@aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:
I think there's a difference between publicly validating events while ignoring their destruction and violence, and trying to gin up support for overturning an election decision.
And there, you and I disagree. Inciting violence, or at least encouraging the continuation of it (cf Harris's comments) is fundamentally no different from what you claim Trump did. The only difference is the circumstances.
Validating events while ignoring destruction is OK.
Ginning up support for overthrowing an election is bad.The methods are the same. The only difference is the motivation.
Are you saying that the end justifies the means?
Condemning one while ignoring the other, well, "These are my standards. If you don't like them, I have others."
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wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 22:54 last edited by
How are the lives and business of everyday Americans less sacrosanct than a governmental function, even an election? Hundreds of thousands of Americans' lives, businesses, property, safety, freedom, bodies and health were jeopardized and threatened by the BLM stuff.
Preserving and protecting those very things are the exact job of Congress. They failed, and in fact used it for political benefit.
Now, tell me which is worse.
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@aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:
- BLM (not Antifa, BLM) protests were worse in outcome than the Capitol invasion
One outcome is BLM stenciled on the back of NFL helmets
Another is the speaker calling "whiteness" the cause of the invasionIt's worse for non-BLM members
And worse for those with "whiteness"@aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:
- Trump is not responsible for anything that happened last Wednesday
Anything? That covers a lot of ground
But did he incite a riot? I don't think so.
I really don't.Would his words have caused me to invade? No.
Would the invasion have happened no matter what he said? Based on the obvious planning by the invaders, I'd say yes.
wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 23:15 last edited by@copper said in What She Saw:
Would the invasion have happened no matter what he said? Based on the obvious planning by the invaders, I'd say yes.
So it wasn't sponateous? Outside third parties involved? An inside job? Was the POTUS just a muggins?
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@aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:
- BLM (not Antifa, BLM) protests were worse in outcome than the Capitol invasion
One outcome is BLM stenciled on the back of NFL helmets
Another is the speaker calling "whiteness" the cause of the invasionIt's worse for non-BLM members
And worse for those with "whiteness"@aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:
- Trump is not responsible for anything that happened last Wednesday
Anything? That covers a lot of ground
But did he incite a riot? I don't think so.
I really don't.Would his words have caused me to invade? No.
Would the invasion have happened no matter what he said? Based on the obvious planning by the invaders, I'd say yes.
wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 23:19 last edited by@copper said in What She Saw:
Would the invasion have happened no matter what he said? Based on the obvious planning by the invaders, I'd say yes.
Who organized the initial protest rally?
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@loki said in What She Saw:
Imagine what happened at the Capitol was BLM,
Except there were several BLM protests in DC last year and none of them led to Congressmen hiding in undisclosed locations and the suspension of government.
Now it is true that a lot of property was destroyed, but hey, the Capitol invaders have that covered too.
wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 23:22 last edited by@aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:
@loki said in What She Saw:
Imagine what happened at the Capitol was BLM,
Except there were several BLM protests in DC last year and none of them led to Congressmen hiding in undisclosed locations and the suspension of government.
Now it is true that a lot of property was destroyed, but hey, the Capitol invaders have that covered too.
To be clear I am not asserting they are equivalent. Recall the broken windows theory however. Violence has been tolerated and in many cases celebrated in the past year. It’s not okay. Period. Full stop.
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@aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:
I think there's a difference between publicly validating events while ignoring their destruction and violence, and trying to gin up support for overturning an election decision.
And there, you and I disagree. Inciting violence, or at least encouraging the continuation of it (cf Harris's comments) is fundamentally no different from what you claim Trump did. The only difference is the circumstances.
Validating events while ignoring destruction is OK.
Ginning up support for overthrowing an election is bad.The methods are the same. The only difference is the motivation.
Are you saying that the end justifies the means?
Condemning one while ignoring the other, well, "These are my standards. If you don't like them, I have others."
wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 00:08 last edited by@george-k said in What She Saw:
Validating events while ignoring destruction is OK.
Ginning up support for overthrowing an election is bad.I didn't say anything like that. I said the actions were different, which they are.
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How are the lives and business of everyday Americans less sacrosanct than a governmental function, even an election? Hundreds of thousands of Americans' lives, businesses, property, safety, freedom, bodies and health were jeopardized and threatened by the BLM stuff.
Preserving and protecting those very things are the exact job of Congress. They failed, and in fact used it for political benefit.
Now, tell me which is worse.
wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 00:11 last edited by@mik said in What She Saw:
Now, tell me which is worse.
Threatening an election is worse than blocking up streets.
Killing a police officer is worse than burning down a building.
Ginning up mass dissent for months by feeding the public with a pack of lies is as bad as giving arsonists a pass. -
wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 00:16 last edited by Mik 1 Dec 2021, 00:17
Oh, come on, you can do better than that.
They are not threatening an election, they are protesting an election they believe was fraudulent. Why didn't you pick graffiti instead of blocking streets? Just as absurd a comparison.
The police officer killed was at least involved. The BLM protests yielded police officers deliberately killed in ambushes while they sat in their cars, nowhere near a protest. Which is worse?
Don't you think the BLM protestors were egged on by ginned up lies?
The argument that 1/6 was SO MUCH WORSE just doesn't wash.
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@copper said in What She Saw:
Would the invasion have happened no matter what he said? Based on the obvious planning by the invaders, I'd say yes.
So it wasn't sponateous? Outside third parties involved? An inside job? Was the POTUS just a muggins?
wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 00:24 last edited by@renauda said in What She Saw:
@copper said in What She Saw:
Would the invasion have happened no matter what he said? Based on the obvious planning by the invaders, I'd say yes.
So it wasn't sponateous? Outside third parties involved? An inside job? Was the POTUS just a muggins?
I have no idea, but several seemed to have tools used to break barriers. Maybe they bought them from street vendors near the Capitol.
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@copper said in What She Saw:
Would the invasion have happened no matter what he said? Based on the obvious planning by the invaders, I'd say yes.
Who organized the initial protest rally?
wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 00:24 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in What She Saw:
@copper said in What She Saw:
Would the invasion have happened no matter what he said? Based on the obvious planning by the invaders, I'd say yes.
Who organized the initial protest rally?
The peace loving president.
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@mik said in What She Saw:
Now, tell me which is worse.
Threatening an election is worse than blocking up streets.
Killing a police officer is worse than burning down a building.
Ginning up mass dissent for months by feeding the public with a pack of lies is as bad as giving arsonists a pass.wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 00:27 last edited by@aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:
Threatening an election is worse than blocking up streets.
What does that even mean "Threatening an election"?
If the election is crooked I hope it is threatened. Although as I mentioned, I'm not sure what that means.
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wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 00:40 last edited byThis post is deleted!
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Oh, come on, you can do better than that.
They are not threatening an election, they are protesting an election they believe was fraudulent. Why didn't you pick graffiti instead of blocking streets? Just as absurd a comparison.
The police officer killed was at least involved. The BLM protests yielded police officers deliberately killed in ambushes while they sat in their cars, nowhere near a protest. Which is worse?
Don't you think the BLM protestors were egged on by ginned up lies?
The argument that 1/6 was SO MUCH WORSE just doesn't wash.
wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 00:52 last edited by@mik said in What She Saw:
They are not threatening an election, they are protesting an election they believe was fraudulent.
The ones who were just hanging out and not breaking any laws are fine; they're precisely as guilty as the peaceful BLM protesters, which is not at all. Are you willing to admit that's true?
Those in particular who broke into the Capitol building, assaulted police and journalists, destroyed a shitload of A/V equipment and a few people died as a result? If you're saying those people were "protesting," then I will not respect that opinion.