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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
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  3. What She Saw

What She Saw

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  • 8 89th
    11 Jan 2021, 21:10

    @horace said in What She Saw:

    @89th said in What She Saw:

    Overall a good article and read.

    However, when I read this, it casted doubt on her overall view.

    "I heard President Trump praise many members of Congress, but heard nothing to incite violence"

    Except for these lines, right?

    • these people [protesters] aren’t going to take it anymore!
    • we will never give up
    • we will never concede
    • we will stop the steal
    • we are not gonna let it happen
    • we must save our democracy
    • were not going to stand and let this country be destroyed (he says variations of this about 30x btw)
    • people are illegally taking over our government
    • if you don’t fight like hell we aren’t going to have a country anymore

    Sounds a lot like the rhetoric behind the riots of 2020, which were also based on a fictitious cultural narrative. But somehow the slippery slope started right now, with Trump. I think that's strange.

    I completely agree.

    L Offline
    L Offline
    Loki
    wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 21:13 last edited by Loki 1 Nov 2021, 21:14
    #12

    @89th said in What She Saw:

    @horace said in What She Saw:

    @89th said in What She Saw:

    Overall a good article and read.

    However, when I read this, it casted doubt on her overall view.

    "I heard President Trump praise many members of Congress, but heard nothing to incite violence"

    Except for these lines, right?

    • these people [protesters] aren’t going to take it anymore!
    • we will never give up
    • we will never concede
    • we will stop the steal
    • we are not gonna let it happen
    • we must save our democracy
    • were not going to stand and let this country be destroyed (he says variations of this about 30x btw)
    • people are illegally taking over our government
    • if you don’t fight like hell we aren’t going to have a country anymore

    Sounds a lot like the rhetoric behind the riots of 2020, which were also based on a fictitious cultural narrative. But somehow the slippery slope started right now, with Trump. I think that's strange.

    I completely agree.

    I can’t help but react to all this the same way I would the BLM and anarchist protests. Imagine what happened at the Capitol was BLM, Antifa etc... any rationalization would need to be applied equally to all protests.

    A 1 Reply Last reply 11 Jan 2021, 21:54
    • L Loki
      11 Jan 2021, 21:13

      @89th said in What She Saw:

      @horace said in What She Saw:

      @89th said in What She Saw:

      Overall a good article and read.

      However, when I read this, it casted doubt on her overall view.

      "I heard President Trump praise many members of Congress, but heard nothing to incite violence"

      Except for these lines, right?

      • these people [protesters] aren’t going to take it anymore!
      • we will never give up
      • we will never concede
      • we will stop the steal
      • we are not gonna let it happen
      • we must save our democracy
      • were not going to stand and let this country be destroyed (he says variations of this about 30x btw)
      • people are illegally taking over our government
      • if you don’t fight like hell we aren’t going to have a country anymore

      Sounds a lot like the rhetoric behind the riots of 2020, which were also based on a fictitious cultural narrative. But somehow the slippery slope started right now, with Trump. I think that's strange.

      I completely agree.

      I can’t help but react to all this the same way I would the BLM and anarchist protests. Imagine what happened at the Capitol was BLM, Antifa etc... any rationalization would need to be applied equally to all protests.

      A Offline
      A Offline
      Aqua Letifer
      wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 21:54 last edited by
      #13

      @loki said in What She Saw:

      Imagine what happened at the Capitol was BLM,

      Except there were several BLM protests in DC last year and none of them led to Congressmen hiding in undisclosed locations and the suspension of government.

      Now it is true that a lot of property was destroyed, but hey, the Capitol invaders have that covered too.

      Please love yourself.

      G L 2 Replies Last reply 11 Jan 2021, 22:23
      • A Aqua Letifer
        11 Jan 2021, 21:54

        @loki said in What She Saw:

        Imagine what happened at the Capitol was BLM,

        Except there were several BLM protests in DC last year and none of them led to Congressmen hiding in undisclosed locations and the suspension of government.

        Now it is true that a lot of property was destroyed, but hey, the Capitol invaders have that covered too.

        G Offline
        G Offline
        George K
        wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 22:23 last edited by
        #14

        @aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:

        Except there were several BLM protests in DC last year and none of them led to Congressmen hiding in undisclosed locations and the suspension of government.

        Congressmen's Congresspersons' lives matter.

        Remember during the Floyd protests when Trump was taken to a bunker and was accused of being a coward?

        This was happening:

        alt text

        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

        A 1 Reply Last reply 11 Jan 2021, 22:25
        • G George K
          11 Jan 2021, 22:23

          @aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:

          Except there were several BLM protests in DC last year and none of them led to Congressmen hiding in undisclosed locations and the suspension of government.

          Congressmen's Congresspersons' lives matter.

          Remember during the Floyd protests when Trump was taken to a bunker and was accused of being a coward?

          This was happening:

          alt text

          A Offline
          A Offline
          Aqua Letifer
          wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 22:25 last edited by
          #15

          @george-k said in What She Saw:

          Congressmen's Congresspersons' lives matter.
          Remember during the Floyd protests when Trump was taken to a bunker and was accused of being a coward?
          This was happening:

          Can we stop with all this?

          George, do you honestly think:

          1. BLM (not Antifa, BLM) protests were worse in outcome than the Capitol invasion
          2. Trump is not responsible for anything that happened last Wednesday

          Please love yourself.

          G 1 Reply Last reply 11 Jan 2021, 22:35
          • A Aqua Letifer
            11 Jan 2021, 22:25

            @george-k said in What She Saw:

            Congressmen's Congresspersons' lives matter.
            Remember during the Floyd protests when Trump was taken to a bunker and was accused of being a coward?
            This was happening:

            Can we stop with all this?

            George, do you honestly think:

            1. BLM (not Antifa, BLM) protests were worse in outcome than the Capitol invasion
            2. Trump is not responsible for anything that happened last Wednesday
            G Offline
            G Offline
            George K
            wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 22:35 last edited by George K 1 Nov 2021, 22:36
            #16

            @aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:

            George, do you honestly think:

            1. BLM (not Antifa, BLM) protests were worse in outcome than the Capitol invasion

            In terms of what? Property damage? Loss of life? What do you mean "worse."

            1. Trump is not responsible for anything that happened last Wednesday

            This is a legal question and a political one.

            Legally, this is a high bar to get over.

            Politically, let the chips fall where they may. Having said that, comments from Vice-President Elect Harris. Rep. Waters, and other government officials are to be considered."Punch them in the face," Senator Tester? Really? Hillary Clinton "You can't be civil with a political party that wants to destroy what you stand for." Former AG Holder, "When they go low, we kick them." Rep. Joaquin Castro, "We fight him...in the streets."

            I fail to see how the ignoring of one leads to condemnation of the other.

            "In the streets"
            "Kick them"
            "In the face"
            "Protests should continue" - as DC burns.

            Show me how these are not incitements, and then I'll stop the whataboutism. If you can't, then, well, there you go.

            "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

            The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

            1 Reply Last reply
            • A Offline
              A Offline
              Aqua Letifer
              wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 22:45 last edited by
              #17

              @george-k said in What She Saw:

              In terms of what? Property damage? Loss of life? What do you mean "worse."

              In terms of what you personally find to be most troublesome.

              This is a legal question and a political one.

              Well we agree there. I absolutely think the courts should be involved.

              Show me how these are not incitements, and then I'll stop the whataboutism. If you can't, then, well, there you go.

              I think there's a difference between publicly validating events while ignoring their destruction and violence, and trying to gin up support for overturning an election decision.

              In other words, the two incidents are not at all the same. That's not shorthand for BLM gets a pass. I mean they need to be evaluated separately. The internet's full of lazy false equivocations that only perpetuate the problem.

              Please love yourself.

              C G 2 Replies Last reply 11 Jan 2021, 22:51
              • A Aqua Letifer
                11 Jan 2021, 22:45

                @george-k said in What She Saw:

                In terms of what? Property damage? Loss of life? What do you mean "worse."

                In terms of what you personally find to be most troublesome.

                This is a legal question and a political one.

                Well we agree there. I absolutely think the courts should be involved.

                Show me how these are not incitements, and then I'll stop the whataboutism. If you can't, then, well, there you go.

                I think there's a difference between publicly validating events while ignoring their destruction and violence, and trying to gin up support for overturning an election decision.

                In other words, the two incidents are not at all the same. That's not shorthand for BLM gets a pass. I mean they need to be evaluated separately. The internet's full of lazy false equivocations that only perpetuate the problem.

                C Offline
                C Offline
                Copper
                wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 22:51 last edited by
                #18

                @aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:

                1. BLM (not Antifa, BLM) protests were worse in outcome than the Capitol invasion

                One outcome is BLM stenciled on the back of NFL helmets
                Another is the speaker calling "whiteness" the cause of the invasion

                It's worse for non-BLM members
                And worse for those with "whiteness"

                @aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:

                1. Trump is not responsible for anything that happened last Wednesday

                Anything? That covers a lot of ground
                But did he incite a riot? I don't think so.
                I really don't.

                Would his words have caused me to invade? No.

                Would the invasion have happened no matter what he said? Based on the obvious planning by the invaders, I'd say yes.

                R D 2 Replies Last reply 11 Jan 2021, 23:15
                • A Aqua Letifer
                  11 Jan 2021, 22:45

                  @george-k said in What She Saw:

                  In terms of what? Property damage? Loss of life? What do you mean "worse."

                  In terms of what you personally find to be most troublesome.

                  This is a legal question and a political one.

                  Well we agree there. I absolutely think the courts should be involved.

                  Show me how these are not incitements, and then I'll stop the whataboutism. If you can't, then, well, there you go.

                  I think there's a difference between publicly validating events while ignoring their destruction and violence, and trying to gin up support for overturning an election decision.

                  In other words, the two incidents are not at all the same. That's not shorthand for BLM gets a pass. I mean they need to be evaluated separately. The internet's full of lazy false equivocations that only perpetuate the problem.

                  G Offline
                  G Offline
                  George K
                  wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 22:53 last edited by
                  #19

                  @aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:

                  I think there's a difference between publicly validating events while ignoring their destruction and violence, and trying to gin up support for overturning an election decision.

                  And there, you and I disagree. Inciting violence, or at least encouraging the continuation of it (cf Harris's comments) is fundamentally no different from what you claim Trump did. The only difference is the circumstances.

                  Validating events while ignoring destruction is OK.
                  Ginning up support for overthrowing an election is bad.

                  The methods are the same. The only difference is the motivation.

                  Are you saying that the end justifies the means?

                  Condemning one while ignoring the other, well, "These are my standards. If you don't like them, I have others."

                  "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                  The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                  A 1 Reply Last reply 12 Jan 2021, 00:08
                  • M Offline
                    M Offline
                    Mik
                    wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 22:54 last edited by
                    #20

                    How are the lives and business of everyday Americans less sacrosanct than a governmental function, even an election? Hundreds of thousands of Americans' lives, businesses, property, safety, freedom, bodies and health were jeopardized and threatened by the BLM stuff.

                    Preserving and protecting those very things are the exact job of Congress. They failed, and in fact used it for political benefit.

                    Now, tell me which is worse.

                    “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                    A 1 Reply Last reply 12 Jan 2021, 00:11
                    • C Copper
                      11 Jan 2021, 22:51

                      @aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:

                      1. BLM (not Antifa, BLM) protests were worse in outcome than the Capitol invasion

                      One outcome is BLM stenciled on the back of NFL helmets
                      Another is the speaker calling "whiteness" the cause of the invasion

                      It's worse for non-BLM members
                      And worse for those with "whiteness"

                      @aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:

                      1. Trump is not responsible for anything that happened last Wednesday

                      Anything? That covers a lot of ground
                      But did he incite a riot? I don't think so.
                      I really don't.

                      Would his words have caused me to invade? No.

                      Would the invasion have happened no matter what he said? Based on the obvious planning by the invaders, I'd say yes.

                      R Offline
                      R Offline
                      Renauda
                      wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 23:15 last edited by
                      #21

                      @copper said in What She Saw:

                      Would the invasion have happened no matter what he said? Based on the obvious planning by the invaders, I'd say yes.

                      So it wasn't sponateous? Outside third parties involved? An inside job? Was the POTUS just a muggins?

                      Elbows up!

                      C 1 Reply Last reply 12 Jan 2021, 00:24
                      • C Copper
                        11 Jan 2021, 22:51

                        @aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:

                        1. BLM (not Antifa, BLM) protests were worse in outcome than the Capitol invasion

                        One outcome is BLM stenciled on the back of NFL helmets
                        Another is the speaker calling "whiteness" the cause of the invasion

                        It's worse for non-BLM members
                        And worse for those with "whiteness"

                        @aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:

                        1. Trump is not responsible for anything that happened last Wednesday

                        Anything? That covers a lot of ground
                        But did he incite a riot? I don't think so.
                        I really don't.

                        Would his words have caused me to invade? No.

                        Would the invasion have happened no matter what he said? Based on the obvious planning by the invaders, I'd say yes.

                        D Offline
                        D Offline
                        Doctor Phibes
                        wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 23:19 last edited by
                        #22

                        @copper said in What She Saw:

                        Would the invasion have happened no matter what he said? Based on the obvious planning by the invaders, I'd say yes.

                        Who organized the initial protest rally?

                        I was only joking

                        C 1 Reply Last reply 12 Jan 2021, 00:24
                        • A Aqua Letifer
                          11 Jan 2021, 21:54

                          @loki said in What She Saw:

                          Imagine what happened at the Capitol was BLM,

                          Except there were several BLM protests in DC last year and none of them led to Congressmen hiding in undisclosed locations and the suspension of government.

                          Now it is true that a lot of property was destroyed, but hey, the Capitol invaders have that covered too.

                          L Offline
                          L Offline
                          Loki
                          wrote on 11 Jan 2021, 23:22 last edited by
                          #23

                          @aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:

                          @loki said in What She Saw:

                          Imagine what happened at the Capitol was BLM,

                          Except there were several BLM protests in DC last year and none of them led to Congressmen hiding in undisclosed locations and the suspension of government.

                          Now it is true that a lot of property was destroyed, but hey, the Capitol invaders have that covered too.

                          To be clear I am not asserting they are equivalent. Recall the broken windows theory however. Violence has been tolerated and in many cases celebrated in the past year. It’s not okay. Period. Full stop.

                          A 1 Reply Last reply 12 Jan 2021, 00:55
                          • G George K
                            11 Jan 2021, 22:53

                            @aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:

                            I think there's a difference between publicly validating events while ignoring their destruction and violence, and trying to gin up support for overturning an election decision.

                            And there, you and I disagree. Inciting violence, or at least encouraging the continuation of it (cf Harris's comments) is fundamentally no different from what you claim Trump did. The only difference is the circumstances.

                            Validating events while ignoring destruction is OK.
                            Ginning up support for overthrowing an election is bad.

                            The methods are the same. The only difference is the motivation.

                            Are you saying that the end justifies the means?

                            Condemning one while ignoring the other, well, "These are my standards. If you don't like them, I have others."

                            A Offline
                            A Offline
                            Aqua Letifer
                            wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 00:08 last edited by
                            #24

                            @george-k said in What She Saw:

                            Validating events while ignoring destruction is OK.
                            Ginning up support for overthrowing an election is bad.

                            I didn't say anything like that. I said the actions were different, which they are.

                            Please love yourself.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • M Mik
                              11 Jan 2021, 22:54

                              How are the lives and business of everyday Americans less sacrosanct than a governmental function, even an election? Hundreds of thousands of Americans' lives, businesses, property, safety, freedom, bodies and health were jeopardized and threatened by the BLM stuff.

                              Preserving and protecting those very things are the exact job of Congress. They failed, and in fact used it for political benefit.

                              Now, tell me which is worse.

                              A Offline
                              A Offline
                              Aqua Letifer
                              wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 00:11 last edited by
                              #25

                              @mik said in What She Saw:

                              Now, tell me which is worse.

                              Threatening an election is worse than blocking up streets.
                              Killing a police officer is worse than burning down a building.
                              Ginning up mass dissent for months by feeding the public with a pack of lies is as bad as giving arsonists a pass.

                              Please love yourself.

                              C 1 Reply Last reply 12 Jan 2021, 00:27
                              • M Offline
                                M Offline
                                Mik
                                wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 00:16 last edited by Mik 1 Dec 2021, 00:17
                                #26

                                Oh, come on, you can do better than that.

                                They are not threatening an election, they are protesting an election they believe was fraudulent. Why didn't you pick graffiti instead of blocking streets? Just as absurd a comparison.

                                The police officer killed was at least involved. The BLM protests yielded police officers deliberately killed in ambushes while they sat in their cars, nowhere near a protest. Which is worse?

                                Don't you think the BLM protestors were egged on by ginned up lies?

                                The argument that 1/6 was SO MUCH WORSE just doesn't wash.

                                “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                A 1 Reply Last reply 12 Jan 2021, 00:52
                                • R Renauda
                                  11 Jan 2021, 23:15

                                  @copper said in What She Saw:

                                  Would the invasion have happened no matter what he said? Based on the obvious planning by the invaders, I'd say yes.

                                  So it wasn't sponateous? Outside third parties involved? An inside job? Was the POTUS just a muggins?

                                  C Offline
                                  C Offline
                                  Copper
                                  wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 00:24 last edited by
                                  #27

                                  @renauda said in What She Saw:

                                  @copper said in What She Saw:

                                  Would the invasion have happened no matter what he said? Based on the obvious planning by the invaders, I'd say yes.

                                  So it wasn't sponateous? Outside third parties involved? An inside job? Was the POTUS just a muggins?

                                  I have no idea, but several seemed to have tools used to break barriers. Maybe they bought them from street vendors near the Capitol.

                                  R 1 Reply Last reply 12 Jan 2021, 01:05
                                  • D Doctor Phibes
                                    11 Jan 2021, 23:19

                                    @copper said in What She Saw:

                                    Would the invasion have happened no matter what he said? Based on the obvious planning by the invaders, I'd say yes.

                                    Who organized the initial protest rally?

                                    C Offline
                                    C Offline
                                    Copper
                                    wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 00:24 last edited by
                                    #28

                                    @doctor-phibes said in What She Saw:

                                    @copper said in What She Saw:

                                    Would the invasion have happened no matter what he said? Based on the obvious planning by the invaders, I'd say yes.

                                    Who organized the initial protest rally?

                                    The peace loving president.

                                    D 1 Reply Last reply 12 Jan 2021, 01:34
                                    • A Aqua Letifer
                                      12 Jan 2021, 00:11

                                      @mik said in What She Saw:

                                      Now, tell me which is worse.

                                      Threatening an election is worse than blocking up streets.
                                      Killing a police officer is worse than burning down a building.
                                      Ginning up mass dissent for months by feeding the public with a pack of lies is as bad as giving arsonists a pass.

                                      C Offline
                                      C Offline
                                      Copper
                                      wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 00:27 last edited by
                                      #29

                                      @aqua-letifer said in What She Saw:

                                      Threatening an election is worse than blocking up streets.

                                      What does that even mean "Threatening an election"?

                                      If the election is crooked I hope it is threatened. Although as I mentioned, I'm not sure what that means.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • L Offline
                                        L Offline
                                        Loki
                                        wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 00:40 last edited by
                                        #30
                                        This post is deleted!
                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • M Mik
                                          12 Jan 2021, 00:16

                                          Oh, come on, you can do better than that.

                                          They are not threatening an election, they are protesting an election they believe was fraudulent. Why didn't you pick graffiti instead of blocking streets? Just as absurd a comparison.

                                          The police officer killed was at least involved. The BLM protests yielded police officers deliberately killed in ambushes while they sat in their cars, nowhere near a protest. Which is worse?

                                          Don't you think the BLM protestors were egged on by ginned up lies?

                                          The argument that 1/6 was SO MUCH WORSE just doesn't wash.

                                          A Offline
                                          A Offline
                                          Aqua Letifer
                                          wrote on 12 Jan 2021, 00:52 last edited by
                                          #31

                                          @mik said in What She Saw:

                                          They are not threatening an election, they are protesting an election they believe was fraudulent.

                                          The ones who were just hanging out and not breaking any laws are fine; they're precisely as guilty as the peaceful BLM protesters, which is not at all. Are you willing to admit that's true?

                                          Those in particular who broke into the Capitol building, assaulted police and journalists, destroyed a shitload of A/V equipment and a few people died as a result? If you're saying those people were "protesting," then I will not respect that opinion.

                                          Please love yourself.

                                          M 1 Reply Last reply 12 Jan 2021, 01:28
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