and speaking of airport nightmares...
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Various clips out there, here is one. Yeah looks as "simple" as ATC told the truck to cross Runway 4 then tried to get Frontier (taxiing) to stop then kept saying stop stop stop (probably trying to talk to the truck and the JZA646 that just landed) in a panic. Not sure how much time elapsed but I bet he says the stop stop stop after the crash/fire is visible.
Not that every problem requires a computer or AI, but it's remarkable that ground control with predefined routes, predefined vehicles, and predefined risks aren't automated to prevent anything like this. Perhaps with a billion flights per day (rounding up...), the issue is the rogue helicopter (DCA) or the rogue firetruck (LGA). Obviously not rogue, but a vehicle trying to cross where the big planes are coming and going...
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I'd imagine seatbelts saved many lives in that plane with such a forward impact. No idea how anyone in the fire vehicle survived...but perhaps the plane struck the back of it where there was no one sitting. Poor pilots, probably saw it clear as day in the final seconds.
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Another take from X
@deelo190Airline pilot here:
I’ve made a few posts, for posterity it seems I should combine them so here goes:
I guess I should lead with the fact that I know LGA really, really well -
And having 1 controller working both ground and tower; late… on a Sunday is straight up normal. Anything you’re hearing about a controller shortage is BS. Should there be 1 guy working? No -
But it’s been that way as long as I can remember.
Second, if you listen to the audio. You can hear the controller try to stop the truck. Which means a few things. The truck took too long to cross after the initial clearance was issued. In LGA shit happens quickly. If you can’t execute you’re immediately stopped. So looking at the truck. He took too long to cross.. which means that he was either in the wrong position when he first called, or he was going too slow. BOTH are wrong. That’s problematic. So if you listen to the guy IN the truck.. he’s nervous. Classic low confidence read back. What that says to me?
He was in training.
Let’s investigate that a little further? If the fire department was going to train someone… you’d do it when it’s “quiet” right? Well, LGA is never more quiet than late, on a Sunday -
You starting to see it yet?
Now, the controller. Was task heavy already (being by himself) working two frequencies in low weather. But again, nothing new there. Especially that guy. I recognize his voice. He’s a rockstar. He can handle it if anyone can.
Now… BEFORE the incident with the truck. It’s important to understand the truck was rolling in response to an emergency.
There was already a United flight that had supposedly aborted a takeoff due to a fume event on the other side of the field.
Usually not something they roll CFR for, BUT if you listen to the earlier audio it’s pretty apparent the United flight crew was basically losing control of the cabin. The flight attendants were running that show.
The United pilots, then respond by (incorrectly) pressing the Controller for a gate -
That’s important to recognize the United crew was pressing the GROUND controller. Because it’s important to recognize that ground IS NOT in charge of gate assignments… so the United crew was pressing the wrong controller, which then put him (the controller) into a spot of trying to coordinate FOR THEM because apparently they don’t know how to do their jobs.
The controller. Went from task heavy to what we call “task saturated.”
Add that little fiasco into the truck moving slower than it should’ve been… poor radio discipline on the truck…
We’re starting to create a scenario, yeah?
Now finally the flight crew.
Could they have gone around?
Should they have gone around?
Now we’re getting into Monday night quarterbacking.
Yes to both… in hindsight.
The reality is. The weather was low. So maybe they couldn’t visually verify that the truck had crossed.
I will say, defacto; a go-around is always an option. Until It’s not. And it’s not once the reversers are out. So to be at 100kts ground speed… the reversers were out.
To see what they saw, you’d have to be in the plane with them or re-create it in a sim.
I will also say.. the truck. DEFINTELY SAW THE LIGHTS COMING DOWN THE RUNWAY.
So, as usual. Multiple things played into it.
…it’s never just one thing, right?
But…
-
Another take from X
@deelo190Airline pilot here:
I’ve made a few posts, for posterity it seems I should combine them so here goes:
I guess I should lead with the fact that I know LGA really, really well -
And having 1 controller working both ground and tower; late… on a Sunday is straight up normal. Anything you’re hearing about a controller shortage is BS. Should there be 1 guy working? No -
But it’s been that way as long as I can remember.
Second, if you listen to the audio. You can hear the controller try to stop the truck. Which means a few things. The truck took too long to cross after the initial clearance was issued. In LGA shit happens quickly. If you can’t execute you’re immediately stopped. So looking at the truck. He took too long to cross.. which means that he was either in the wrong position when he first called, or he was going too slow. BOTH are wrong. That’s problematic. So if you listen to the guy IN the truck.. he’s nervous. Classic low confidence read back. What that says to me?
He was in training.
Let’s investigate that a little further? If the fire department was going to train someone… you’d do it when it’s “quiet” right? Well, LGA is never more quiet than late, on a Sunday -
You starting to see it yet?
Now, the controller. Was task heavy already (being by himself) working two frequencies in low weather. But again, nothing new there. Especially that guy. I recognize his voice. He’s a rockstar. He can handle it if anyone can.
Now… BEFORE the incident with the truck. It’s important to understand the truck was rolling in response to an emergency.
There was already a United flight that had supposedly aborted a takeoff due to a fume event on the other side of the field.
Usually not something they roll CFR for, BUT if you listen to the earlier audio it’s pretty apparent the United flight crew was basically losing control of the cabin. The flight attendants were running that show.
The United pilots, then respond by (incorrectly) pressing the Controller for a gate -
That’s important to recognize the United crew was pressing the GROUND controller. Because it’s important to recognize that ground IS NOT in charge of gate assignments… so the United crew was pressing the wrong controller, which then put him (the controller) into a spot of trying to coordinate FOR THEM because apparently they don’t know how to do their jobs.
The controller. Went from task heavy to what we call “task saturated.”
Add that little fiasco into the truck moving slower than it should’ve been… poor radio discipline on the truck…
We’re starting to create a scenario, yeah?
Now finally the flight crew.
Could they have gone around?
Should they have gone around?
Now we’re getting into Monday night quarterbacking.
Yes to both… in hindsight.
The reality is. The weather was low. So maybe they couldn’t visually verify that the truck had crossed.
I will say, defacto; a go-around is always an option. Until It’s not. And it’s not once the reversers are out. So to be at 100kts ground speed… the reversers were out.
To see what they saw, you’d have to be in the plane with them or re-create it in a sim.
I will also say.. the truck. DEFINTELY SAW THE LIGHTS COMING DOWN THE RUNWAY.
So, as usual. Multiple things played into it.
…it’s never just one thing, right?
But…
Anything you’re hearing about a controller shortage is BS.
That seems to be a very rare - bordering on eccentric - opinion. People inside and outside the organization and multiple administrations have said otherwise consistently for years. There have even been congressional hearings about it.
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