ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis
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@89th said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Can someone catch me up with the debate here? To me it seems pretty simple. Pretti was out there to protest and yes was legally carrying a firearm in his back waistband. He was holding his phone up and (at worst) shouting at officers while standing in the street), this resulted in the officers pushing him and a lady back to the sidewalk, he turned to help the lady, the officers pepper sprayed and grabbed him and tackled him and in the chaos, they see his gun, someone yells he has a gun, an officer disarms Pretti, the cop that switches from pepper spray can to gun accidentally (maybe on purpose, but I like to think accidentally) fires a shot, at which point he (and others) continue to shoot (which is normal), and Pretti dies in the street. Legal, unarmed, executed with 10 shots.
He was resisting arrest for like 4 seconds, trying to stand and flee or fight (who knows, maybe even use his gun). He was disarmed before we got a chance to find out, someone yells gun, not even the guy who disarmed him. That person probably only saw the gun in the hands of the ICE officer who disarmed Pretti. In the chaos, while Pretti was continuing to resist arrest, that word "gun" was heard by the wrong ICE officer at the wrong moment and he shot. And yes, at that point, the whole group, or enough of them, intended on ending Pretti's life, and it was, in the moment, an act of self-defense. Not actually, not in retrospect, but the psychology of the moment was self defense. We can infer this if we allow that the yelling of the word "gun" was necessary for this to happen.
It's actually perfectly reasonable to think that he may have used his gun if he'd managed to extricate himself from the group of cops attempting to restrain him. If not then, when? If not then, then why bring it at all?
It's actually perfectly reasonable to think that he may have used his gun if he'd managed to extricate himself from the group of cops attempting to restrain him. If not then, when?
I would argue that to be an unreasonable ex post facto assumption that would not withstand serious scrutiny. Any competent prosecuting barrister would shred that to pieces as statement of defence.
As to when he would have used it, no one knows because he cannot speak for himself because he’s now dead. However I think we can safely assume it was not for big game hunting or given his now known profile, to commit a criminal act. I suspect it was primarily for self defence - he did, after all, have an open carry permit - in the event he was the victim of a criminal act and needed to defend himself or his property.
If not then, then why bring it at all?
Again we do not know and we will not know conclusively because he is dead. We can only speculate why it was on his person at the time - self defence against criminals. The only fact we do know is that the video footage of the moments leading up to his murder do not indicate he made any attempt to draw the firearm in self defence or in anger to threaten the ICE troopers. Quite the opposite in fact and, as Xenon pointed out, he retreated to a defensive fetal position to protect himself.
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It's so weird seeing American conservatives question why somebody needs to be armed.
What's next, an admission that East and West-coast housing is so expensive because they're the best bits of America?
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One of the most ridiculous things anybody said was Kash Patel saying he had no right to be armed. Of course he had a right to be armed. But that choice sure did have consequences.
He chose to bring a gun into an intentionally tense situation, where using the gun would be certain suicide. Gun advocates who happen to be sane can judge the situation without being called hypocrites.
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One of the most ridiculous things anybody said was Kash Patel saying he had no right to be armed. Of course he had a right to be armed. But that choice sure did have consequences.
He chose to bring a gun into an intentionally tense situation, where using the gun would be certain suicide. Gun advocates who happen to be sane can judge the situation without being called hypocrites.
@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
One of the most ridiculous things anybody said was Kash Patel saying he had no right to be armed. Of course he had a right to be armed. But that choice sure did have consequences.
He chose to bring a gun into an intentionally tense situation, where using the gun would be certain suicide. Gun advocates who happen to be sane can judge the situation without being called hypocrites.
They didn't even wait to pry it from his cold, dead hands.
We've had to listen to decades of extreme rhetoric from the right about the God-given right to carry guns, and suddenly we need to temper this with a bit of common sense?
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@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
One of the most ridiculous things anybody said was Kash Patel saying he had no right to be armed. Of course he had a right to be armed. But that choice sure did have consequences.
He chose to bring a gun into an intentionally tense situation, where using the gun would be certain suicide. Gun advocates who happen to be sane can judge the situation without being called hypocrites.
They didn't even wait to pry it from his cold, dead hands.
We've had to listen to decades of extreme rhetoric from the right about the God-given right to carry guns, and suddenly we need to temper this with a bit of common sense?
We've had to listen to decades of extreme rhetoric from the right about the God-given right to carry guns, and suddenly we need to temper this with a bit of common sense?
I’d be careful if I were you, invocations of God given rights in conjunction with firearms could conjure up a blowhard ghost from the past.
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Forgive my spitballing here, but Kash and Kristi don't really sound that pro-life, either!
They're FUCKING LIBERALS!!!
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Forgive my spitballing here, but Kash and Kristi don't really sound that pro-life, either!
They're FUCKING LIBERALS!!!
But they govern as conservatives.
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Alex Petti kicking out ICE SUV taillight and shouting 1/13. I saw another version of this that showed him being quite belligerent before this video starts.
Link to video -
Alex Petti kicking out ICE SUV taillight and shouting 1/13. I saw another version of this that showed him being quite belligerent before this video starts.
Link to video@Mik said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Alex Petti kicking out ICE SUV taillight and shouting 1/13. I saw another version of this that showed him being quite belligerent before this video starts.
So the ICE and CBP agents who supposedly had "far less time to consider what actions to take" had time to look up what someone that "seems to be Alex Pretti" did on 1/13 and factor that into their decisions within the tens of seconds they encountered and killed Pretti?
What's the logic here?
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I saw that video clip on a BBC Verify clip last night. Pretti ought to have been detained there and then on the spot and turned over to the Minneapolis Police or the FBI. At the very least Public Mischief and Hooliganism charges would have been appropriate. As well, his open carry permit rescinded and firearm confiscated. Responsible law enforcement at that time could have averted last Saturday’s tragedy.
Elbows up!
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@Mik said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Alex Petti kicking out ICE SUV taillight and shouting 1/13. I saw another version of this that showed him being quite belligerent before this video starts.
So the ICE and CBP agents who supposedly had "far less time to consider what actions to take" had time to look up what someone that "seems to be Alex Pretti" did on 1/13 and factor that into their decisions within the tens of seconds they encountered and killed Pretti?
What's the logic here?
@Axtremus said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
@Mik said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Alex Petti kicking out ICE SUV taillight and shouting 1/13. I saw another version of this that showed him being quite belligerent before this video starts.
So the ICE and CBP agents who supposedly had "far less time to consider what actions to take" had time to look up what someone that "seems to be Alex Pretti" did on 1/13 and factor that into their decisions within the tens of seconds they encountered and killed Pretti?
What's the logic here?
Just facts about the sorts of things he actually did. Not only did the border patrol agents who shot him not know about that, it wouldn't even have been admissible in court. But they remain facts about the things he actually did. You can ignore them as you please.
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But the video should inform one's judgement about whether Alex was itching for an opportunity to use his gun on an ICE officer.
There is also the very reasonable possibility that he was hoping to get publicly martyred. The common rabble is eating it up at least as well as he would have hoped.
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I saw that video clip on a BBC Verify clip last night. Pretti ought to have been detained there and then on the spot and turned over to the Minneapolis Police or the FBI. At the very least Public Mischief and Hooliganism charges would have been appropriate. As well, his open carry permit rescinded and firearm confiscated. Responsible law enforcement at that time could have averted last Saturday’s tragedy.
@Renauda said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
I saw that video clip on a BBC Verify clip last night. Pretti ought to have been detained there and then on the spot and turned over to the Minneapolis Police or the FBI. At the very least Public Mischief and Hooliganism charges would have been appropriate. As well, his open carry permit rescinded and firearm confiscated. Responsible law enforcement at that time could have averted last Saturday’s tragedy.
Agreed.
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This is not an excuse for the agency and their actions. What it does speak to is this is a 2 way fucking street, and both parties (and I’m talking the broader sense of the word) share responsibility.
Unfortunately, this is going to result in both sides becoming even more radicalized.
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Nobody here has claimed he's a saint, and pretty much everybody has said he behaved like an idiot. That isn't the point.
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You can psycho-analyze Pretti and his hypothetical motives to engage in obstruction, mischief and hooliganism against ICE until Hell freezes over. Likewise, the irrelevancy of his apparent religious zealotry in opposition to ICE’s mission and tactics. The fact remains that Pretti never used his firearm against ICE troopers in the two documented incidents.
