ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis
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No need to calibrate anything. As I wrote on Saturday when this latest deadly force incident occurred, the protestor faced off with what he had thought were the Keystone Cops when in reality he confronted the Earps. (https://nodebb.the-new-coffee-room.club/post/355775)
The Earps, like it appears ICE troopers, also lacked discipline and were ill trained (actually no training at all, just badges) as law enforcement Marshals.
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Good take here. One of the takeaways, you have a right to carry a gun, but you don't have a right that the mere presence of your gun won't escalate situations.
Link to videoSo many in the trump hate tribe are weeping over this guy like he was an innocent bystander who was summarily executed. That's an absolute joke of a take. He was there to agitate, and he aggressively inserted himself into the middle of an already violent law enforcement encounter. 99 times out of 100 he doesn't end up dead even being that fucking stupid, and I'm sure he wasn't planning to. But shit happened.
Here's a representative example of the joke take. This guy's a popular lawyer youtuber who mostly does non-political stuff, but when he does political stuff, it's clear what tribe he belongs to.
Link to video
@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
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"That's an absolute joke of a take. He was there to agitate, and he aggressively inserted himself into the middle of an already violent law enforcement encounter. "ICU nurses have a long history of domestic terrorism. Really?
My take...
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Best to not light a match to see where the dynamite is. It was foolish to bring the gun. If you're facing off against Bruce Lee, the knife in your hand will not likely provide protection - but gives Bruce the opportunity to "defend himself" to your detriment. I think we're all in agreement that bringing the gun was a mistake - but many of the 2nd amendment crowd would typically support - e.g. Kyle Rittenhouse brought weapon to protest - no problem.
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The expanded ICE project was launched quite rapidly - with little time to provide guardrails of code of conduct or standard operating procedures. Few enterprises developed that quickly, with that kind of scale and no experience are destined for success. In fact, the "quotas" that have been provided to ICE employees may provide incentives to bend the law to achieve results.
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While you've suggested otherwise, I don't think the nurse represented an intentional agitator, let alone domestic terrorist. He was classified as an observer to document ICE activities. In the videos, things seemed to go south when he tried to assist the woman who had been pushed to the pavement. Some would think that assisting a woman thrown to the ground was a compassion gesture - maybe something a nurse would be do. But, other more knowledgeable people, of course, see this as wanton aggression perpetrated against authority
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The shooting began while Pretti was pinned on the ground by several agents, and continued after he collapsed motionless. One agent fired three rounds into Pretti's back while he was bracing himself with one hand still holding his phone. This is a measured response to a perceived threat? Not excessive? Appropriate? How was he aggressively resisting when pinned to the ground after the first shot? Was his aggression attempting to help up the woman?
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When professional police are involved in a shooting, the area is sealed off to preserve the crime scene. There are procedures to be followed to ensure the integrity of an investigation. This time?
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Within hours, without any investigation, high-ranking officials provided the following: White House advisor Stephen Miller alleged without evidence that Pretti was a "domestic terrorist" who tried to "assassinate federal law enforcement". DHS Secretary Kristi Noem accused Pretti of brandishing his firearm and committing "an act of domestic terrorism". Border Patrol Commander Gregory Bovino speculated Pretti was "more than likely" there to assault officers. That's nonsense.
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It's nice to see some "conservatives" finally acknowledge that people wandering around carrying loaded handguns in broad daylight maybe aren't the brightest bulbs in the sock drawer.
@Doctor-Phibes said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
It's nice to see some "conservatives" finally acknowledge that people wandering around carrying loaded handguns in broad daylight maybe aren't the brightest bulbs in the sock drawer.
Glad you pointed that out. Someone needed to do it.
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@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
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"That's an absolute joke of a take. He was there to agitate, and he aggressively inserted himself into the middle of an already violent law enforcement encounter. "ICU nurses have a long history of domestic terrorism. Really?
My take...
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Best to not light a match to see where the dynamite is. It was foolish to bring the gun. If you're facing off against Bruce Lee, the knife in your hand will not likely provide protection - but gives Bruce the opportunity to "defend himself" to your detriment. I think we're all in agreement that bringing the gun was a mistake - but many of the 2nd amendment crowd would typically support - e.g. Kyle Rittenhouse brought weapon to protest - no problem.
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The expanded ICE project was launched quite rapidly - with little time to provide guardrails of code of conduct or standard operating procedures. Few enterprises developed that quickly, with that kind of scale and no experience are destined for success. In fact, the "quotas" that have been provided to ICE employees may provide incentives to bend the law to achieve results.
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While you've suggested otherwise, I don't think the nurse represented an intentional agitator, let alone domestic terrorist. He was classified as an observer to document ICE activities. In the videos, things seemed to go south when he tried to assist the woman who had been pushed to the pavement. Some would think that assisting a woman thrown to the ground was a compassion gesture - maybe something a nurse would be do. But, other more knowledgeable people, of course, see this as wanton aggression perpetrated against authority
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The shooting began while Pretti was pinned on the ground by several agents, and continued after he collapsed motionless. One agent fired three rounds into Pretti's back while he was bracing himself with one hand still holding his phone. This is a measured response to a perceived threat? Not excessive? Appropriate? How was he aggressively resisting when pinned to the ground after the first shot? Was his aggression attempting to help up the woman?
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When professional police are involved in a shooting, the area is sealed off to preserve the crime scene. There are procedures to be followed to ensure the integrity of an investigation. This time?
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Within hours, without any investigation, high-ranking officials provided the following: White House advisor Stephen Miller alleged without evidence that Pretti was a "domestic terrorist" who tried to "assassinate federal law enforcement". DHS Secretary Kristi Noem accused Pretti of brandishing his firearm and committing "an act of domestic terrorism". Border Patrol Commander Gregory Bovino speculated Pretti was "more than likely" there to assault officers. That's nonsense.
@kluurs said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
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"That's an absolute joke of a take. He was there to agitate, and he aggressively inserted himself into the middle of an already violent law enforcement encounter. "ICU nurses have a long history of domestic terrorism. Really?
You got that from "he was there to agitate"? Try harder here. He was actually there to agitate. He had another physical run-in with ICE a week or two prior to this one. Again as a totally innocent bystander I'm sure.
My take...
- Best to not light a match to see where the dynamite is. It was foolish to bring the gun. If you're facing off against Bruce Lee, the knife in your hand will not likely provide protection - but gives Bruce the opportunity to "defend himself" to your detriment. I think we're all in agreement that bringing the gun was a mistake - but many of the 2nd amendment crowd would typically support - e.g. Kyle Rittenhouse brought weapon to protest - no problem.
Kyle was there to potentially use it to lawfully protect something or someone, if necessary. You can do the thought experiment if you think Alex had similar motivations. Any such experiment ends with him shooting ICE officers.
- While you've suggested otherwise, I don't think the nurse represented an intentional agitator, let alone domestic terrorist. He was classified as an observer to document ICE activities. In the videos, things seemed to go south when he tried to assist the woman who had been pushed to the pavement. Some would think that assisting a woman thrown to the ground was a compassion gesture - maybe something a nurse would be do. But, other more knowledgeable people, of course, see this as wanton aggression perpetrated against authority
He was there to agitate and disrupt. I have no doubt of that. You don't thrust yourself between a person involved in a violent dispute with an officer, then resist arrest as the officer attempts to subdue you, and just claim innocent bystander good Samaritan status. Yes, that is the absolute joke take.
There are potential scenarios where there's a really bad cop doing a really bad thing where such an action would be legit heroic. In this case, it was an agitator responding to the narrative running through his head, without regard for whether he was interfering with police activity.
- The shooting began while Pretti was pinned on the ground by several agents, and continued after he collapsed motionless. One agent fired three rounds into Pretti's back while he was bracing himself with one hand still holding his phone. This is a measured response to a perceived threat? Not excessive? Appropriate? How was he aggressively resisting when pinned to the ground after the first shot? Was his aggression attempting to help up the woman?
I am definitely not claiming that level heads ruled the day, and I won't be surprised if an ICE officer or three gets convicted here. I AM claiming that the situation was intentionally and aggressively made possible by the agitators, of whom Alex was one. It would be interesting to know what prompted the original shove that spurred Alex into heroic action. A random shove of someone walking by peacefully, I'll bet.
- Within hours, without any investigation, high-ranking officials provided the following: White House advisor Stephen Miller alleged without evidence that Pretti was a "domestic terrorist" who tried to "assassinate federal law enforcement". DHS Secretary Kristi Noem accused Pretti of brandishing his firearm and committing "an act of domestic terrorism". Border Patrol Commander Gregory Bovino speculated Pretti was "more than likely" there to assault officers. That's nonsense.
Yes that was all garbage, and everybody in the pundit class on the right admits it, from what I've heard. It does nobody any good for the administration to be spouting nonsense like that.
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Neither death was anything but a joint effort from all parties.
"You cannot subsidize irresponsibility and expect people to become more responsible." — Thomas Sowell
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@Mik said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Neither death was anything but a joint effort from all parties.
Responsibility may have been shared. The consequences have not.
I was only joking
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@Mik said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Neither death was anything but a joint effort from all parties.
Responsibility may have been shared. The consequences have not.
@Doctor-Phibes said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
@Mik said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Neither death was anything but a joint effort from all parties.
Responsibility may have been shared. The consequences have not.
Recommend not leaving the house with the express intent to interfere with police operations one finds personally objectionable. While skirting the boundaries of legality and broad jumping over the boundaries of common sense.
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Texas has like 10x the ICE deportations as MN, and zero events like this. Of course that is entirely because Texas doesn't have this cosplay self righteous antifa culture that all the cool kids in Minneapolis are doing. Anybody can cry their tears over their consequences as they please.
Education is extremely important.
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Texas has like 10x the ICE deportations as MN, and zero events like this. Of course that is entirely because Texas doesn't have this cosplay self righteous antifa culture that all the cool kids in Minneapolis are doing. Anybody can cry their tears over their consequences as they please.
@Horace said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Texas has like 10x the ICE deportations as MN, and zero events like this. Of course that is entirely because Texas doesn't have this cosplay self righteous antifa culture that all the cool kids in Minneapolis are doing. Anybody can cry their tears over their consequences as they please.
It strikes me that the protesters aren't the only ones indulging in self-righteous cosplay. YMMV, of course, as always.
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Inappropriate term. Bothsidesism refers to both sides doing approximately the same thing. That does not apply in any way here. Horace makes an excellent point about ICE officers having far less time to consider what actions to take.
"You cannot subsidize irresponsibility and expect people to become more responsible." — Thomas Sowell
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Inappropriate term. Bothsidesism refers to both sides doing approximately the same thing. That does not apply in any way here. Horace makes an excellent point about ICE officers having far less time to consider what actions to take.
@Mik said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Horace makes an excellent point about ICE officers having far less time to consider what actions to take.
A point that conveniently ignores the very reasonable expectation that the ICE officers should have had ample time for training and ample time to internalize the rules of engagement that should have functioned as guardrails for all the split-second decisions they are expected to make on the job.
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Inappropriate term. Bothsidesism refers to both sides doing approximately the same thing. That does not apply in any way here. Horace makes an excellent point about ICE officers having far less time to consider what actions to take.
@Mik said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Horace makes an excellent point about ICE officers having far less time to consider what actions to take.
I think it's worth considering at what point in the proceedings ICE officers decided to empty 10 rounds of ammunition into somebody lying face down on the ground. Because, it seemed like a bit of an over-reaction from this admittedly layman's perspective.
Sure, they were a bit rushed, but still.....
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There are studies and data on police shootings. And when they interview the officers involved and ask them how many shots they and/or others fired, almost 100% underestimate by almost a factor of 10. ( I would think that the same would be true of soldiers also.)
That does not make an excuse for what happened in MN, but I guess if you talked to the ICE people before they saw/heard the videos, etc., they would probably say that there were maybe two shots fired.
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Texas has like 10x the ICE deportations as MN, and zero events like this. Of course that is entirely because Texas doesn't have this cosplay self righteous antifa culture that all the cool kids in Minneapolis are doing. Anybody can cry their tears over their consequences as they please.
Of course that is entirely because Texas doesn't have this cosplay self righteous antifa culture that all the cool kids in Minneapolis are doing.
Not from my experience with Texans either, although I can hardly describe Texans as anywhere near passive. Quite the opposite. The sort that would form a paramilitary militia and take ICE head on. Failing that they would cosplay Texas Rangers posse, charter a bus convoy to Washington and storm the Capital Building along the lines of January 6 all the time yelling “Remember the Alamo”!
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@Mik said in ICE kills a US citizen in Minneapolis:
Neither death was anything but a joint effort from all parties.
That’s been my take…
