Department of Education
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The best one can expect from federally controlled education is a uniform mediocrity. Excellence stems from smaller organizations being able to innovate without the constraining tentacles of federal and often state money. Shut the DOE down.
@Mik said in Department of Education:
The best one can expect from federally controlled education is a uniform mediocrity. Excellence stems from smaller organizations being able to innovate without the constraining tentacles of federal and often state money. Shut the DOE down.
In this country there has never been a federal Ministry of Education. Constitutionally, education is under the exclusive jurisdiction of each province and territory in the Confederation. As such, the federal government cannot earmark any portions of its transfer payments to the provinces and territories for the purpose of education.
The system works partly because all the provinces and territories work together in ensuring that education curriculum across the country is more or less standardised to meet agreed to outcomes and objectives. Thus enabling students to advance into post secondary education institutions of their choosing in any province on an equal footing. That even includes Quebec where French language skills may determine prerequisite qualifications for enrollment.
I should hope that in the US the individual states can achieve similar country wide harmonisation in the absence of federal oversight and direct funding.
Good luck.
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@taiwan_girl said in Department of Education:
@Mik said in Department of Education:
The best one can expect from federally controlled education is a uniform mediocrity.
From what little I know, the DOE does not set any standards or set any guidelines for schools. The states (and US schools) are still the ones that set acheivement tests, etc. They mainly distribute federal money. I may be wrong on that.
Based on that, I could see the money distribution being done by a department within another organization.
Yep. You’re wrong.
@Mik said in Department of Education:
Yep. You’re wrong.
from DOE website
It is States and communities, as well as public and private organizations of all kinds, that establish schools and colleges, develop curricula, and determine requirements for enrollment and graduation. The structure of education finance in America reflects this predominant State and local role. Of an estimated $1.15 trillion being spent nationwide on education at all levels for school year 2012-2013, a substantial majority will come from State, local, and private sources. This is especially true at the elementary and secondary level, where about 92 percent of the funds will come from non-Federal sources.
I am actually curious since this is all in the news. What is the role of DOE in setting standards and cirriculum?
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@Mik said in Department of Education:
Yep. You’re wrong.
from DOE website
It is States and communities, as well as public and private organizations of all kinds, that establish schools and colleges, develop curricula, and determine requirements for enrollment and graduation. The structure of education finance in America reflects this predominant State and local role. Of an estimated $1.15 trillion being spent nationwide on education at all levels for school year 2012-2013, a substantial majority will come from State, local, and private sources. This is especially true at the elementary and secondary level, where about 92 percent of the funds will come from non-Federal sources.
I am actually curious since this is all in the news. What is the role of DOE in setting standards and cirriculum?
@taiwan_girl said in Department of Education:
@Mik said in Department of Education:
Yep. You’re wrong.
from DOE website
It is States and communities, as well as public and private organizations of all kinds, that establish schools and colleges, develop curricula, and determine requirements for enrollment and graduation. The structure of education finance in America reflects this predominant State and local role. Of an estimated $1.15 trillion being spent nationwide on education at all levels for school year 2012-2013, a substantial majority will come from State, local, and private sources. This is especially true at the elementary and secondary level, where about 92 percent of the funds will come from non-Federal sources.
I am actually curious since this is all in the news. What is the role of DOE in setting standards and cirriculum?
The states set standards and curriculum, but those are heavily influenced by federal policies and strings attached to federal funds.
As evidenced by a decades long downard trend in test scores, the American taxpayer ain't getting much for their money.
OTOH, state grants propped up by federal money can make a difference. Louisiana just moved multiple spots up in education rankings using just such monies to fund a multi-parish program. It's not earth-shattering...They are using an outside contractor for teacher training. The contractor has done something very smart...Because of what they are paying, they're getting the pick of the litter in Louisiana public school teachers.
Using proven techniques, these teacher's teachers are striving for more effective classroom time and more uniformity in approach, with a very local approach.
It's obviously working.
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Makes sense. As I said, dont know much about it.
But how far "down the chain" do you go? Each school can set their own standards? Each state?
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Makes sense. As I said, dont know much about it.
But how far "down the chain" do you go? Each school can set their own standards? Each state?
@taiwan_girl said in Department of Education:
Makes sense. As I said, dont know much about it.
But how far "down the chain" do you go? Each school can set their own standards? Each state?
Depends on the state as to how much freedom the local schoolboard has.
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@taiwan_girl said in Department of Education:
Makes sense. As I said, dont know much about it.
But how far "down the chain" do you go? Each school can set their own standards? Each state?
Depends on the state as to how much freedom the local schoolboard has.
@Jolly said in Department of Education:
Depends on the state as to how much freedom the local schoolboard has.
Okay. But I would think it would be beneficial to have some sort of national (or at least state) standard.
Want to be XXX profession (doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc) there is a standarized test you must pass.
Various college studies (engineering for example) pretty much need to be accredited - again, following some sort of national standard.
(not saying the Dept. Of Ed could not have its functions taken up by another department)
I just think that going down to a "micro" scale of allowing each district/school to set their own standards is not a good idea.
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@Jolly said in Department of Education:
Depends on the state as to how much freedom the local schoolboard has.
Okay. But I would think it would be beneficial to have some sort of national (or at least state) standard.
Want to be XXX profession (doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc) there is a standarized test you must pass.
Various college studies (engineering for example) pretty much need to be accredited - again, following some sort of national standard.
(not saying the Dept. Of Ed could not have its functions taken up by another department)
I just think that going down to a "micro" scale of allowing each district/school to set their own standards is not a good idea.
@taiwan_girl said in Department of Education:
allowing each district/school to set their own standards is not a good idea.
It is a great idea for schools that excel.
You don't want to set average standards for above average schools.
That is the "E" in DEI. DEI people want to make everyone equal by bringing down the good students, not by bringing up the bad students.
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@taiwan_girl said in Department of Education:
allowing each district/school to set their own standards is not a good idea.
It is a great idea for schools that excel.
You don't want to set average standards for above average schools.
That is the "E" in DEI. DEI people want to make everyone equal by bringing down the good students, not by bringing up the bad students.
@Copper said in Department of Education:
You don't want to set average standards for above average schools.
Sure you do. Then those schools exceed them.
You are a golfer. Every golf course sets a standard - the par score.
Great golfers exceed that score. Poor golfers do worse.
Same with setting standards for schools. Setting the standards does not mean that you cannot exceed them.
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@Copper said in Department of Education:
You don't want to set average standards for above average schools.
Sure you do. Then those schools exceed them.
You are a golfer. Every golf course sets a standard - the par score.
Great golfers exceed that score. Poor golfers do worse.
Same with setting standards for schools. Setting the standards does not mean that you cannot exceed them.
@taiwan_girl said in Department of Education:
Setting the standards does not mean that you cannot exceed them.
That is exactly what is done by setting the standards low.
Removing SAT scores for college admission is an example of this.
Golf handicaps are another example of this.
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@taiwan_girl said in Department of Education:
Setting the standards does not mean that you cannot exceed them.
That is exactly what is done by setting the standards low.
Removing SAT scores for college admission is an example of this.
Golf handicaps are another example of this.
@Copper said in Department of Education:
That is exactly what is done by setting the standards low.
So, you are saying that the DOE has been setting national education standards and they are setting them too low?
Removing SAT scores for college admission is an example of this.
My point exactly. The SAT is a "national" standard. LOL
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I think the overall argument against the DOE is that their funding has been going at at the same time student achievement has been plummeting. So what’s the point?
I think the real answer is probably more cultural.
@xenon said in Department of Education:
I think the overall argument against the DOE is that their funding has been going at at the same time student achievement has been plummeting. So what’s the point?
I think the real answer is probably more cultural.
When they barred the kids from going to school during COVID, a lot of parents finally came face to face with what they're children were learning. Since COVID, we have had a boom in homeschooling and private schools. And it's not the cream that's being left behind in the public schools.
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I don’t think the DOE does what people here think it does.
Over half the budget is federal student aid - Pell grants, federal loans, etc. You going to zero that out? Another 30% or so are grants to K-12. You going to zero that out? 5% supports career and vocational training. Are we going to zero that out?
This will be like what he did to NAFTA. Basically rebrand it but leave it mostly unchanged.
