They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.
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@Horace said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@jon-nyc And neither will he take away their vaccines, as much fun as deploying that rhetoric may be. I know your source of truth will be soundbites from podcasts, and I know you'll never listen to his confirmation hearings, so there you will stay.
Put your JDS down for a spell and let’s talk about the issue at hand.
I believe he ‘won’t take away our vaccines’. But I suspect he would take initial, and deadly, steps such as mandate a Phase 4 placebo-controlled trial for most of them.
@jon-nyc said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@Horace said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@jon-nyc And neither will he take away their vaccines, as much fun as deploying that rhetoric may be. I know your source of truth will be soundbites from podcasts, and I know you'll never listen to his confirmation hearings, so there you will stay.
Put your JDS down for a spell and let’s talk about the issue at hand.
Yes I'm sorry for ever pushing back on you. I know you're innocent, always honest, never disingenuous. It's unfair that you receive pushback. You're the best of us, as you've always known, and as we've all had to learn.
I believe he ‘won’t take away our vaccines’. But I suspect he would take initial, and deadly, steps such as mandate a Phase 4 placebo-controlled trial for most of them.
I look forward to your rhetoric around this, should it happen.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
I will say that his stuff about the food dyes and some of the preservatives deserve a serious conversation.
Yes, he occasionally hits a target. The American diet is something else we should all be thinking about.
However, either he's seriously anti-vaccination, or he's cynically exploited people's fears in order to gain support. Neither alternative is good.
No, I think he's seriously anti-vax.
@Jolly said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
No, I think he's seriously anti-vax.
So, that's not good. Not at all.
I'm fairly sure that if he'd been put forward by the position by a Democrat President, many of the people making excuses for him would be way, way more negative.
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@Jolly said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
No, I think he's seriously anti-vax.
So, that's not good. Not at all.
I'm fairly sure that if he'd been put forward by the position by a Democrat President, many of the people making excuses for him would be way, way more negative.
@Doctor-Phibes said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@Jolly said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
No, I think he's seriously anti-vax.
So, that's not good. Not at all.
I'm fairly sure that if he'd been put forward by the position by a Democrat President, many of the people making excuses for him now would be way, way more negative.
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I'm not clear in practice what RFK would do about them if confirmed. Based on the confirmation hearings, not much. More testing? Ok, frame that as "deadly" if you will, and the rest of us can discard the rhetoric. The point about aspirin not making it through the FDA today is well-taken. Maybe all of our existing regulations are "deadly" too, if one wanted to make the rhetorical case. Such cases are not objective truth, they are just a perspective.
I sure will carry for the rest of my life a mild resentment that I was forced to take the COVID vaccine, or lose my livelihood.
Education is extremely important.
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@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
I will say that his stuff about the food dyes and some of the preservatives deserve a serious conversation.
Yes, he occasionally hits a target. The American diet is something else we should all be thinking about.
However, either he's seriously anti-vaccination, or he's cynically exploited people's fears in order to gain support. Neither alternative is good.
@Doctor-Phibes said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
I will say that his stuff about the food dyes and some of the preservatives deserve a serious conversation.
Yes, he occasionally hits a target. The American diet is something else we should all be thinking about.
However, either he's seriously anti-vaccination, or he's cynically exploited people's fears in order to gain support. Neither alternative is good.
Personally, I don’t think he’s clearing confirmation. And I agree with @jon-nyc that some of his anti-vax rhetoric has serious implications, even if no official actions are taken. But I also think it’s an issue whether he’s approved or not. The multitude of lies put out by public health has a lot of people not taking things at face value anymore.
There is overwhelming scientific evidence that says vaccines are safe. Great, says the skeptic… That overwhelming scientific evidence is being provided by the same groups that said 15 Days to Flatten the Curve, and told us that masks were ineffective…, then said they were, then not really, then told us to not step into public without one. The same public health and scientific researchers that said COVID was absolutely not a lab leak and obviously came from pangolins in a wet market. They told us the vax would prevent spread and we wouldn’t get sick. Then changed to we’ll get a little sick, but won’t spread. Then, yeah, you can still spread but Natural Immunity doesn’t exist, so what else are you going to do? Oh wait, Natural Immunity doesn’t exist work pretty equivalently to the vax, but the vaccine is safer… Unless you’re a kid. Or a teen. Or a young adult…
I can excuse those people for looking at the huge piles of scientific evidence about the safety of vaccines and being a little skeptical.
The Brad
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I'm not clear in practice what RFK would do about them if confirmed. Based on the confirmation hearings, not much. More testing? Ok, frame that as "deadly" if you will, and the rest of us can discard the rhetoric. The point about aspirin not making it through the FDA today is well-taken. Maybe all of our existing regulations are "deadly" too, if one wanted to make the rhetorical case. Such cases are not objective truth, they are just a perspective.
I sure will carry for the rest of my life a mild resentment that I was forced to take the COVID vaccine, or lose my livelihood.
I agree it's not immediately obvious why a placebo controlled P4 trial in childhood vaccines would be dangerous, at least for those who haven't attended 'how to be paper-thin in clinical trials' class.
In certain fields of medicine, placebo-controlled trials are the gold standard, and many vaccines have undergone them. However, when there is already an effective treatment, forcing half your trial participants to forego the treatment in order to be test subjects for a potentially better treatment is considered unethical. In these cases they often run 'non-inferiority' trials, where they compare the new treatment to the old and if the new treatment is not inferior, it gets approval.
This is most common in oncology, where the ethics are really obvious since the endpoint is mortality. Imagine there a cancer that kills you in 3 months. We have a treatment that keeps 30% of the people alive five years and increases the median survival to, say, a year. Now someone introduces a potential better treatment. You really going to force half the people on placebo? No, you'd give half the existing treatment and the other half the new.
In a placebo controlled measles vaccine trial you would be consigning some percentage of the control group to a measles diagnosis. In a large enough trial, the worst outcomes would appear.
On top of that, as I've mentioned before, the mere fact of putting an official stamp on questioning the safety of these vaccines would encourage many more people to avoid them, with the predictable consequences. This indeed has already happened (the avoidance, its still too early for the consequences)
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I agree it's not immediately obvious why a placebo controlled P4 trial in childhood vaccines would be dangerous, at least for those who haven't attended 'how to be paper-thin in clinical trials' class.
In certain fields of medicine, placebo-controlled trials are the gold standard, and many vaccines have undergone them. However, when there is already an effective treatment, forcing half your trial participants to forego the treatment in order to be test subjects for a potentially better treatment is considered unethical. In these cases they often run 'non-inferiority' trials, where they compare the new treatment to the old and if the new treatment is not inferior, it gets approval.
This is most common in oncology, where the ethics are really obvious since the endpoint is mortality. Imagine there a cancer that kills you in 3 months. We have a treatment that keeps 30% of the people alive five years and increases the median survival to, say, a year. Now someone introduces a potential better treatment. You really going to force half the people on placebo? No, you'd give half the existing treatment and the other half the new.
In a placebo controlled measles vaccine trial you would be consigning some percentage of the control group to a measles diagnosis. In a large enough trial, the worst outcomes would appear.
On top of that, as I've mentioned before, the mere fact of putting an official stamp on questioning the safety of these vaccines would encourage many more people to avoid them, with the predictable consequences. This indeed has already happened (the avoidance, its still too early for the consequences)
@jon-nyc I have no issue with that case you made, and I agree that it's a weakness of RFK, and I hope he continues to back off the anti-vax rhetoric, which he demonstrably did during his confirmation hearings. I continue to find it easy to believe that RFK can net out as a positive, if he can use his platform to message convincingly against typical American eating habits.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
I will say that his stuff about the food dyes and some of the preservatives deserve a serious conversation.
Yes, he occasionally hits a target. The American diet is something else we should all be thinking about.
However, either he's seriously anti-vaccination, or he's cynically exploited people's fears in order to gain support. Neither alternative is good.
Personally, I don’t think he’s clearing confirmation. And I agree with @jon-nyc that some of his anti-vax rhetoric has serious implications, even if no official actions are taken. But I also think it’s an issue whether he’s approved or not. The multitude of lies put out by public health has a lot of people not taking things at face value anymore.
There is overwhelming scientific evidence that says vaccines are safe. Great, says the skeptic… That overwhelming scientific evidence is being provided by the same groups that said 15 Days to Flatten the Curve, and told us that masks were ineffective…, then said they were, then not really, then told us to not step into public without one. The same public health and scientific researchers that said COVID was absolutely not a lab leak and obviously came from pangolins in a wet market. They told us the vax would prevent spread and we wouldn’t get sick. Then changed to we’ll get a little sick, but won’t spread. Then, yeah, you can still spread but Natural Immunity doesn’t exist, so what else are you going to do? Oh wait, Natural Immunity doesn’t exist work pretty equivalently to the vax, but the vaccine is safer… Unless you’re a kid. Or a teen. Or a young adult…
I can excuse those people for looking at the huge piles of scientific evidence about the safety of vaccines and being a little skeptical.
@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@Doctor-Phibes said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
I will say that his stuff about the food dyes and some of the preservatives deserve a serious conversation.
Yes, he occasionally hits a target. The American diet is something else we should all be thinking about.
However, either he's seriously anti-vaccination, or he's cynically exploited people's fears in order to gain support. Neither alternative is good.
Personally, I don’t think he’s clearing confirmation. And I agree with @jon-nyc that some of his anti-vax rhetoric has serious implications, even if no official actions are taken. But I also think it’s an issue whether he’s approved or not. The multitude of lies put out by public health has a lot of people not taking things at face value anymore.
There is overwhelming scientific evidence that says vaccines are safe. Great, says the skeptic… That overwhelming scientific evidence is being provided by the same groups that said 15 Days to Flatten the Curve, and told us that masks were ineffective…, then said they were, then not really, then told us to not step into public without one. The same public health and scientific researchers that said COVID was absolutely not a lab leak and obviously came from pangolins in a wet market. They told us the vax would prevent spread and we wouldn’t get sick. Then changed to we’ll get a little sick, but won’t spread. Then, yeah, you can still spread but Natural Immunity doesn’t exist, so what else are you going to do? Oh wait, Natural Immunity doesn’t exist work pretty equivalently to the vax, but the vaccine is safer… Unless you’re a kid. Or a teen. Or a young adult…
I can excuse those people for looking at the huge piles of scientific evidence about the safety of vaccines and being a little skeptical.
Now do the polio vaccine.
I was only joking
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@jon-nyc said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
I hope so too, assuming he's confirmed.
I doubt he is. The head golf the committee is a physician with serious questions about Juniors views.
The Brad
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@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@Doctor-Phibes said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
I will say that his stuff about the food dyes and some of the preservatives deserve a serious conversation.
Yes, he occasionally hits a target. The American diet is something else we should all be thinking about.
However, either he's seriously anti-vaccination, or he's cynically exploited people's fears in order to gain support. Neither alternative is good.
Personally, I don’t think he’s clearing confirmation. And I agree with @jon-nyc that some of his anti-vax rhetoric has serious implications, even if no official actions are taken. But I also think it’s an issue whether he’s approved or not. The multitude of lies put out by public health has a lot of people not taking things at face value anymore.
There is overwhelming scientific evidence that says vaccines are safe. Great, says the skeptic… That overwhelming scientific evidence is being provided by the same groups that said 15 Days to Flatten the Curve, and told us that masks were ineffective…, then said they were, then not really, then told us to not step into public without one. The same public health and scientific researchers that said COVID was absolutely not a lab leak and obviously came from pangolins in a wet market. They told us the vax would prevent spread and we wouldn’t get sick. Then changed to we’ll get a little sick, but won’t spread. Then, yeah, you can still spread but Natural Immunity doesn’t exist, so what else are you going to do? Oh wait, Natural Immunity doesn’t exist work pretty equivalently to the vax, but the vaccine is safer… Unless you’re a kid. Or a teen. Or a young adult…
I can excuse those people for looking at the huge piles of scientific evidence about the safety of vaccines and being a little skeptical.
Now do the polio vaccine.
@Doctor-Phibes said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@Doctor-Phibes said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
I will say that his stuff about the food dyes and some of the preservatives deserve a serious conversation.
Yes, he occasionally hits a target. The American diet is something else we should all be thinking about.
However, either he's seriously anti-vaccination, or he's cynically exploited people's fears in order to gain support. Neither alternative is good.
Personally, I don’t think he’s clearing confirmation. And I agree with @jon-nyc that some of his anti-vax rhetoric has serious implications, even if no official actions are taken. But I also think it’s an issue whether he’s approved or not. The multitude of lies put out by public health has a lot of people not taking things at face value anymore.
There is overwhelming scientific evidence that says vaccines are safe. Great, says the skeptic… That overwhelming scientific evidence is being provided by the same groups that said 15 Days to Flatten the Curve, and told us that masks were ineffective…, then said they were, then not really, then told us to not step into public without one. The same public health and scientific researchers that said COVID was absolutely not a lab leak and obviously came from pangolins in a wet market. They told us the vax would prevent spread and we wouldn’t get sick. Then changed to we’ll get a little sick, but won’t spread. Then, yeah, you can still spread but Natural Immunity doesn’t exist, so what else are you going to do? Oh wait, Natural Immunity doesn’t exist work pretty equivalently to the vax, but the vaccine is safer… Unless you’re a kid. Or a teen. Or a young adult…
I can excuse those people for looking at the huge piles of scientific evidence about the safety of vaccines and being a little skeptical.
Now do the polio vaccine.
Which one?
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@Doctor-Phibes said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@Doctor-Phibes said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
I will say that his stuff about the food dyes and some of the preservatives deserve a serious conversation.
Yes, he occasionally hits a target. The American diet is something else we should all be thinking about.
However, either he's seriously anti-vaccination, or he's cynically exploited people's fears in order to gain support. Neither alternative is good.
Personally, I don’t think he’s clearing confirmation. And I agree with @jon-nyc that some of his anti-vax rhetoric has serious implications, even if no official actions are taken. But I also think it’s an issue whether he’s approved or not. The multitude of lies put out by public health has a lot of people not taking things at face value anymore.
There is overwhelming scientific evidence that says vaccines are safe. Great, says the skeptic… That overwhelming scientific evidence is being provided by the same groups that said 15 Days to Flatten the Curve, and told us that masks were ineffective…, then said they were, then not really, then told us to not step into public without one. The same public health and scientific researchers that said COVID was absolutely not a lab leak and obviously came from pangolins in a wet market. They told us the vax would prevent spread and we wouldn’t get sick. Then changed to we’ll get a little sick, but won’t spread. Then, yeah, you can still spread but Natural Immunity doesn’t exist, so what else are you going to do? Oh wait, Natural Immunity doesn’t exist work pretty equivalently to the vax, but the vaccine is safer… Unless you’re a kid. Or a teen. Or a young adult…
I can excuse those people for looking at the huge piles of scientific evidence about the safety of vaccines and being a little skeptical.
Now do the polio vaccine.
Which one?
@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@Doctor-Phibes said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@Doctor-Phibes said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
I will say that his stuff about the food dyes and some of the preservatives deserve a serious conversation.
Yes, he occasionally hits a target. The American diet is something else we should all be thinking about.
However, either he's seriously anti-vaccination, or he's cynically exploited people's fears in order to gain support. Neither alternative is good.
Personally, I don’t think he’s clearing confirmation. And I agree with @jon-nyc that some of his anti-vax rhetoric has serious implications, even if no official actions are taken. But I also think it’s an issue whether he’s approved or not. The multitude of lies put out by public health has a lot of people not taking things at face value anymore.
There is overwhelming scientific evidence that says vaccines are safe. Great, says the skeptic… That overwhelming scientific evidence is being provided by the same groups that said 15 Days to Flatten the Curve, and told us that masks were ineffective…, then said they were, then not really, then told us to not step into public without one. The same public health and scientific researchers that said COVID was absolutely not a lab leak and obviously came from pangolins in a wet market. They told us the vax would prevent spread and we wouldn’t get sick. Then changed to we’ll get a little sick, but won’t spread. Then, yeah, you can still spread but Natural Immunity doesn’t exist, so what else are you going to do? Oh wait, Natural Immunity doesn’t exist work pretty equivalently to the vax, but the vaccine is safer… Unless you’re a kid. Or a teen. Or a young adult…
I can excuse those people for looking at the huge piles of scientific evidence about the safety of vaccines and being a little skeptical.
Now do the polio vaccine.
Which one?
My point is it's not just the Covid vaccine he doesn't like.
Meanwhile, infant mortality is at an all time low. Let's not try and fix that, eh?
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@jon-nyc said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
I hope so too, assuming he's confirmed.
I doubt he is. The head golf the committee is a physician with serious questions about Juniors views.
@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@jon-nyc said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
I hope so too, assuming he's confirmed.
I doubt he is. The head golf the committee is a physician with serious questions about Juniors views.
Cassidy. Very skeptical. There’s actually two committees of jurisdiction, the other is the Senate Finance Committee who’s head, Mike Crapo, is not a physician but his brother is.
I think the Turtle, Murkowski, and Collins will be no votes if there’s a fourth to make it stick.
Only non-witches get due process.
- Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
I will say that his stuff about the food dyes and some of the preservatives deserve a serious conversation.
Yes, he occasionally hits a target. The American diet is something else we should all be thinking about.
However, either he's seriously anti-vaccination, or he's cynically exploited people's fears in order to gain support. Neither alternative is good.
@Doctor-Phibes said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
I will say that his stuff about the food dyes and some of the preservatives deserve a serious conversation.
Yes, he occasionally hits a target. The American diet is something else we should all be thinking about.
However, either he's seriously anti-vaccination, or he's cynically exploited people's fears in order to gain support. Neither alternative is good.
What RFK jr. is most authoritative and actually very lucid in his thinking is on water conservation and management. The Trump regime of course, won’t let him anywhere near that and have in fact effectively muzzled him on the sidelines.
But as I have already stated RFK Jr. is not an optimal choice for portfolio to which he has been now confirmed. I am certain that he will prove to be just another of many distractions in the Trumpian sown chaos before us.
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@LuFins-Dad said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
@jon-nyc said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
I hope so too, assuming he's confirmed.
I doubt he is. The head golf the committee is a physician with serious questions about Juniors views.
Cassidy. Very skeptical. There’s actually two committees of jurisdiction, the other is the Senate Finance Committee who’s head, Mike Crapo, is not a physician but his brother is.
I think the Turtle, Murkowski, and Collins will be no votes if there’s a fourth to make it stick.
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He faces an uphill battle anyway for voting to convict Trump. Todays GOP is no place for a politician who puts principles above loyalty to Trump.
The interesting thing is he was practically begging RFK to renounce the autism claim so he could vote for him. Kennedy wouldn’t.
I won’t be remotely surprised if he is a no vote. But he’ll be yes out of committee.
And I agree that the decision not to back RFK will be the decision not to seek reelection.
But careful what you wish for, once he decides he’s not running for reelection he can vote his conscience from here on out.
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His nickname among the harder right folks down here is Psycho Bill...
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@Jolly said in They haven't spoken over a few hours in years.:
His nickname among the harder right folks down here is Psycho Bill...
I hate to think what they must call RFK
