Made In The USA
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Tariffs work to move manufacturing back to the USA, but it just means we pay more for everything.
Also, does Trump understand how Tariffs work, or perhaps I don't. From someone summarizing this on reddit:
For those that are confused about tariffs, the IMPORTER does pay the US Government the tariff amount. Let's say a company decides to import LVT flooring from China. If that costs $10 per box, they would have to pay the US Government $2.50 in order to bring that into the country. So now this company paid $12.50 for that box of flooring planks. At no point in this exchange does China, or the manufacturer in China, pay this tariff. It is the American company paying it, and then passing it along to the US consumer.
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If person A is good at making product X but bad at making Y, whereas person B is good at making product Y but bad at making X, then it makes sense to trade. It doesn't make sense for both to produce both.
That doesn't change when you replace persons by countries.
Some protectionism may be warranted if the trade conditions are unfair, but as a general principle, protectionism just makes everybody poorer.
@Klaus said in Made In The USA:
If person A is good at making product X but bad at making Y, whereas person B is good at making product Y but bad at making X, then it makes sense to trade. It doesn't make sense for both to produce both.
That doesn't change when you replace persons by countries.
Some protectionism may be warranted if the trade conditions are unfair, but as a general principle, protectionism just makes everybody poorer.
That only holds up until you are talking about industries and products crucial to national security.
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@Mik said in Made In The USA:
Keeping your citizens gainfully employed is important too.
Otherwise they may become economic migrants and go find work in foreign countries. Canada still hasn't build a southern border wall. US passport holders still enjoy visa-free entry privileges in most countries.
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I think it is good to have more manufacturing in the US, but for the vast majority of people, they vote with their wallets when purchasing.
Made in China = 1 cost
Same product made in USA = 1.2 costAdd a tariff to Made in China, the price increases to 1.2 cost. Now it is equal to the Made in US price.
It is not like the price of the Made in US product will go down. People will then complain about how price of product X went up.
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I dunno where I stand on this. I'm not a fan of government management of the economy - be it through subsidies, tariffs, price controls, whatever. It always goes wrong (high fructose corn syrup), probably doesn't do what you want it to in the long run and just gives an inefficient actor control of the economy.
On the other hand - giving people a path to good jobs that don't require advanced degrees is important. I dunno if tariffs are the best way to do it.
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Frankly, I kinda agree with the guy from McGregor Metals. American Labor generally sucks. American Cars are the most unreliable, American Electronics are unreliable, and if I see the Union Label, I can pretty much guess that it’s crap.
We bitch about outsourcing our factories to 3rd world countries, but generally they do a better job. The alternative now seems to be instead of sending our factories to the 3rd world, to import the 3rd world for our factories… That’s not a great solution, either.
Until we build a pride on our young men and women for the value of labor and a job well done, I don’t know that there’s a solution.
In the meantime, my next car will likely be Japanese. If that means I pay more, so be it. It will still be cheaper in the long run.
The Brad
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True, national security is another valid exception.
But the default should be: Trade is good! It's literally win-win.
@Klaus said in Made In The USA:
True, national security is another valid exception.
But the default should be: Trade is good! It's literally win-win.
Not quite. Fair trade is good.
Example... The Gilmann family operated a number of sawmills in NE Florida and a paper mill close to Fernandina. As the original brothers died out, the paper mill was shut down. The sawmills were sold to West Fraser. Now, WF is using the IP approach to the sawmills, run them into the ground and then close them.
They've closed one sawmill last year, and just announced the closure of a second. Those closures truly hurt the rural areas of NE Florida...Especially since they have a buttload of pine timber in that part of the world.
There are still some paper mills in the area, but pulpwood brings a lot less money to the land owner than timber.
Florida is booming. Tons of residential construction. High demand for lumber. So why is Fraser shutting sawmills down? And you still see railcars loaded with Fraser lumber rumbling through Florida.
Wonder if it's Canadian timber/lumber? And is Canada allowing them to dump it on the U.S. market? Or does Canada even know about it? Or is it covered by a trade agreement?
I don't know, but it doesn't make sense that it's cheaper to cut and mill a tree thousands of miles away, when there are trees within spitting distance. And Americans need the jobs.
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@Klaus said in Made In The USA:
True, national security is another valid exception.
But the default should be: Trade is good! It's literally win-win.
Not quite. Fair trade is good.
Example... The Gilmann family operated a number of sawmills in NE Florida and a paper mill close to Fernandina. As the original brothers died out, the paper mill was shut down. The sawmills were sold to West Fraser. Now, WF is using the IP approach to the sawmills, run them into the ground and then close them.
They've closed one sawmill last year, and just announced the closure of a second. Those closures truly hurt the rural areas of NE Florida...Especially since they have a buttload of pine timber in that part of the world.
There are still some paper mills in the area, but pulpwood brings a lot less money to the land owner than timber.
Florida is booming. Tons of residential construction. High demand for lumber. So why is Fraser shutting sawmills down? And you still see railcars loaded with Fraser lumber rumbling through Florida.
Wonder if it's Canadian timber/lumber? And is Canada allowing them to dump it on the U.S. market? Or does Canada even know about it? Or is it covered by a trade agreement?
I don't know, but it doesn't make sense that it's cheaper to cut and mill a tree thousands of miles away, when there are trees within spitting distance. And Americans need the jobs.
@Jolly said in Made In The USA:
@Klaus said in Made In The USA:
True, national security is another valid exception.
But the default should be: Trade is good! It's literally win-win.
Not quite. Fair trade is good.
Example... The Gilmann family operated a number of sawmills in NE Florida and a paper mill close to Fernandina. As the original brothers died out, the paper mill was shut down. The sawmills were sold to West Fraser. Now, WF is using the IP approach to the sawmills, run them into the ground and then close them.
They've closed one sawmill last year, and just announced the closure of a second. Those closures truly hurt the rural areas of NE Florida...Especially since they have a buttload of pine timber in that part of the world.
There are still some paper mills in the area, but pulpwood brings a lot less money to the land owner than timber.
Florida is booming. Tons of residential construction. High demand for lumber. So why is Fraser shutting sawmills down? And you still see railcars loaded with Fraser lumber rumbling through Florida.
Wonder if it's Canadian timber/lumber? And is Canada allowing them to dump it on the U.S. market? Or does Canada even know about it? Or is it covered by a trade agreement?
I don't know, but it doesn't make sense that it's cheaper to cut and mill a tree thousands of miles away, when there are trees within spitting distance. And Americans need the jobs.
So … you want government controlled means of production, distribution, and exchange of wood and wood-based products?
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@Jolly said in Made In The USA:
@Klaus said in Made In The USA:
True, national security is another valid exception.
But the default should be: Trade is good! It's literally win-win.
Not quite. Fair trade is good.
Example... The Gilmann family operated a number of sawmills in NE Florida and a paper mill close to Fernandina. As the original brothers died out, the paper mill was shut down. The sawmills were sold to West Fraser. Now, WF is using the IP approach to the sawmills, run them into the ground and then close them.
They've closed one sawmill last year, and just announced the closure of a second. Those closures truly hurt the rural areas of NE Florida...Especially since they have a buttload of pine timber in that part of the world.
There are still some paper mills in the area, but pulpwood brings a lot less money to the land owner than timber.
Florida is booming. Tons of residential construction. High demand for lumber. So why is Fraser shutting sawmills down? And you still see railcars loaded with Fraser lumber rumbling through Florida.
Wonder if it's Canadian timber/lumber? And is Canada allowing them to dump it on the U.S. market? Or does Canada even know about it? Or is it covered by a trade agreement?
I don't know, but it doesn't make sense that it's cheaper to cut and mill a tree thousands of miles away, when there are trees within spitting distance. And Americans need the jobs.
So … you want government controlled means of production, distribution, and exchange of wood and wood-based products?
@Axtremus said in Made In The USA:
@Jolly said in Made In The USA:
@Klaus said in Made In The USA:
True, national security is another valid exception.
But the default should be: Trade is good! It's literally win-win.
Not quite. Fair trade is good.
Example... The Gilmann family operated a number of sawmills in NE Florida and a paper mill close to Fernandina. As the original brothers died out, the paper mill was shut down. The sawmills were sold to West Fraser. Now, WF is using the IP approach to the sawmills, run them into the ground and then close them.
They've closed one sawmill last year, and just announced the closure of a second. Those closures truly hurt the rural areas of NE Florida...Especially since they have a buttload of pine timber in that part of the world.
There are still some paper mills in the area, but pulpwood brings a lot less money to the land owner than timber.
Florida is booming. Tons of residential construction. High demand for lumber. So why is Fraser shutting sawmills down? And you still see railcars loaded with Fraser lumber rumbling through Florida.
Wonder if it's Canadian timber/lumber? And is Canada allowing them to dump it on the U.S. market? Or does Canada even know about it? Or is it covered by a trade agreement?
I don't know, but it doesn't make sense that it's cheaper to cut and mill a tree thousands of miles away, when there are trees within spitting distance. And Americans need the jobs.
So … you want government controlled means of production, distribution, and exchange of wood and wood-based products?
Did I say that?
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Consider US Steel and Nippon… https://nodebb.the-new-coffee-room.club/topic/33580/nippon-steel-and-u-s-steel-merger
It looks like the options are to sell the company to Nippon and keep the factories local in Pittsburgh, with an actual reinvestment into the Mon Valley plants and keeping thousands of jobs…. Or losing US Steel entirely. In the global marketplace, does it really matter if the company is owned domestically so long as the means of production and jobs are local? Or would we rather just see the company fold?
The really strange thing is this is a big deal to Pittsburgh, the ultimate swing city in the ultimate swing state, and yet both candidates are taking an antagonistic approach to the purchase.
The Brad
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Wonder if it's Canadian timber/lumber? And is Canada allowing them to dump it on the U.S. market? Or does Canada even know about it? Or is it covered by a trade agreement?
Don’t know…but probably not or maybe or maybe not.
Take it to the WTO….
…but be prepared to lose again.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada–United_States_softwood_lumber_dispute
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Consider US Steel and Nippon… https://nodebb.the-new-coffee-room.club/topic/33580/nippon-steel-and-u-s-steel-merger
It looks like the options are to sell the company to Nippon and keep the factories local in Pittsburgh, with an actual reinvestment into the Mon Valley plants and keeping thousands of jobs…. Or losing US Steel entirely. In the global marketplace, does it really matter if the company is owned domestically so long as the means of production and jobs are local? Or would we rather just see the company fold?
The really strange thing is this is a big deal to Pittsburgh, the ultimate swing city in the ultimate swing state, and yet both candidates are taking an antagonistic approach to the purchase.
@LuFins-Dad said in Made In The USA:
does it really matter if the company is owned domestically so long as the means of production and jobs are local?
Yup, kind of like the car companies. Is it better to buy a "Japanese" car that is 80% made in the US, or a "American" car that is 30% made in the US.
(Dont know how corporate taxes, etc. figure in however)
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Frankly, I kinda agree with the guy from McGregor Metals. American Labor generally sucks. American Cars are the most unreliable, American Electronics are unreliable, and if I see the Union Label, I can pretty much guess that it’s crap.
We bitch about outsourcing our factories to 3rd world countries, but generally they do a better job. The alternative now seems to be instead of sending our factories to the 3rd world, to import the 3rd world for our factories… That’s not a great solution, either.
Until we build a pride on our young men and women for the value of labor and a job well done, I don’t know that there’s a solution.
In the meantime, my next car will likely be Japanese. If that means I pay more, so be it. It will still be cheaper in the long run.
@LuFins-Dad said in Made In The USA:
Frankly, I kinda agree with the guy from McGregor Metals. American Labor generally sucks. American Cars are the most unreliable, American Electronics are unreliable, and if I see the Union Label, I can pretty much guess that it’s crap.
We bitch about outsourcing our factories to 3rd world countries, but generally they do a better job. The alternative now seems to be instead of sending our factories to the 3rd world, to import the 3rd world for our factories… That’s not a great solution, either.
Until we build a pride on our young men and women for the value of labor and a job well done, I don’t know that there’s a solution.
In the meantime, my next car will likely be Japanese. If that means I pay more, so be it. It will still be cheaper in the long run.
I posted a video the other day, about things you may not want to do to your home or things you may not want in buying a home.
Don't remember if it's in that video, but the lady that has that channel has said repeatedly she will not buy or push a brand new house. The reason is materials and labor quality. Especially houses built as developments and not custom built.
So, her cut-off point is about 2004. She said that's when most of the boomers started to retire out of the trades. She said you can see a marked fall in craftsmanship. Most construction workers today don't build quite as good of a house...
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@taiwan_girl said in Made In The USA:
The one I have a comment on is #1 "cheaper energy"
What does that mean?
It means he’s doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
@jon-nyc said in Made In The USA:
@taiwan_girl said in Made In The USA:
The one I have a comment on is #1 "cheaper energy"
What does that mean?
It means he’s doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
I think so
https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article293069834.html
Donald Trump vows the price of gasoline will drop under $2 a gallon if he’s president.
But there’s no way he can simply make that happen, say the experts.
“There’s a zero percent chance a president can fulfill that promise,” said Patrick De Haan, head of petroleum analysis at GasBuddy, which tracks prices.
