"Women's" Boxing at the Olympics
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From a comment:
4th yr med student: The boxer isn’t transgender. They have Androgen insensitivity syndrome, in which case your receptors basically don’t respond to testosterone made by your body. These people are XY and develop & live as women because they look fully like a woman externally, and many don’t even know they have it until they don’t menstruate/are infertile because of it. Look up pictures online of people with it, they look entirely female. Not sure the deal with this boxer and still not agreeing with it, but this isn’t the same as someone transitioning from male to female after undergoing male puberty (which actually does disqualify you from my understanding). It’s more of a complex genetic anomaly but certainly not a straight up man
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From a comment:
4th yr med student: The boxer isn’t transgender. They have Androgen insensitivity syndrome, in which case your receptors basically don’t respond to testosterone made by your body. These people are XY and develop & live as women because they look fully like a woman externally, and many don’t even know they have it until they don’t menstruate/are infertile because of it. Look up pictures online of people with it, they look entirely female. Not sure the deal with this boxer and still not agreeing with it, but this isn’t the same as someone transitioning from male to female after undergoing male puberty (which actually does disqualify you from my understanding). It’s more of a complex genetic anomaly but certainly not a straight up man
@89th said in "Women's" Boxing at the Olympics:
From a comment:
4th yr med student: The boxer isn’t transgender. They have Androgen insensitivity syndrome, in which case your receptors basically don’t respond to testosterone made by your body. These people are XY and develop & live as women because they look fully like a woman externally, and many don’t even know they have it until they don’t menstruate/are infertile because of it. Look up pictures online of people with it, they look entirely female. Not sure the deal with this boxer and still not agreeing with it, but this isn’t the same as someone transitioning from male to female after undergoing male puberty (which actually does disqualify you from my understanding). It’s more of a complex genetic anomaly but certainly not a straight up man
That is being disputed. There is no record of this in the boxer’s medical record until the IBF testing. The IBF president reportedly called them a man looking for a competitive advantage. At the end of the day, you need a standard, and the genetic testing is the cleanest. If it’s XY, then it’s XY.
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@89th said in "Women's" Boxing at the Olympics:
Agree. Maybe he needs to enter the special olympics?
So he can beat the hell out of a disabled person?
These individuals of dubious gender either naturally occurring as in the boxer’s case or medically induced, need their own category in competitive sports.
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Assuming this is a natural aberration it’s a shame and I feel for her. But again, letting her compete is a tyranny of a tiny minority. The rest of the world should not have to bear her burden.
“I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill
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Assuming this is a natural aberration it’s a shame and I feel for her. But again, letting her compete is a tyranny of a tiny minority. The rest of the world should not have to bear her burden.
@Mik said in "Women's" Boxing at the Olympics:
Assuming this is a natural aberration it’s a shame and I feel for her. But again, letting her compete is a tyranny of a tiny minority. The rest of the world should not have to bear her burden.
I don’t know. Michael Phelps has a body perfectly designed for swimming. A genetic rarity indeed. We don’t disallow him to participate because of it.
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@Mik said in "Women's" Boxing at the Olympics:
Assuming this is a natural aberration it’s a shame and I feel for her. But again, letting her compete is a tyranny of a tiny minority. The rest of the world should not have to bear her burden.
I don’t know. Michael Phelps has a body perfectly designed for swimming. A genetic rarity indeed. We don’t disallow him to participate because of it.
@jon-nyc said in "Women's" Boxing at the Olympics:
@Mik said in "Women's" Boxing at the Olympics:
Assuming this is a natural aberration it’s a shame and I feel for her. But again, letting her compete is a tyranny of a tiny minority. The rest of the world should not have to bear her burden.
I don’t know. Michael Phelps has a body perfectly designed for swimming. A genetic rarity indeed. We don’t disallow him to participate because of it.
Michael Phelps DNA isn’t XYDOLPHIN, either. I’m comfortable using DNA as the dividing line, even if there are a very very few in this world that won’t work for.
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If this person was genuinely born XY with female genitalia, it still raises questions about muscular and bone development, etc… I get your argument, @jon-nyc . Would Andre the Giant be disallowed from the heavyweight wrestling matches because of an unfair size advantage? But if she’s got the biological advantages of a dude and she’s XY, then that’s a reasonable cutoff.
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If this person was genuinely born XY with female genitalia, it still raises questions about muscular and bone development, etc… I get your argument, @jon-nyc . Would Andre the Giant be disallowed from the heavyweight wrestling matches because of an unfair size advantage? But if she’s got the biological advantages of a dude and she’s XY, then that’s a reasonable cutoff.
@LuFins-Dad Agree.
Seems to be an unfair advantage. If things were physically the same between men and women, there would not be separate categories in sports.
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She’s lost to plenty of women in the past. The reason this match was so fast is the opponent dropped out.
Besides, could that really be the rule? You’re only allowed to be just so much better than everyone else lest you’re disqualified?
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She’s lost to plenty of women in the past. The reason this match was so fast is the opponent dropped out.
Besides, could that really be the rule? You’re only allowed to be just so much better than everyone else lest you’re disqualified?
@jon-nyc said in "Women's" Boxing at the Olympics:
She’s lost to plenty of women in the past. The reason this match was so fast is the opponent dropped out.
Besides, could that really be the rule? You’re only allowed to be just so much better than everyone else lest you’re disqualified?
The rule here was whatever is on your passport.
The rule for the IBF was genetic. If they came back XY, it came back XY. That seems pretty cut and dried to me. Just because this person has lost to women in the past makes it no less a potential mismatch.
Can a woman beat a man boxing? Yes.
Should she have to?
If this is a genuine intersexed person, then again, I feel all of the compassion in the world for them, but that doesn’t mean they should fighting women if they have a man’s bone density and muscular development.
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Ivorythumper asked a similar question, and I quote:
So what will be your recalibration if it turns out the Imane Kelif is a non-Y female who just has high testosterone and completely dominated her opponent who psychologically collapsed?
Kelif has competed in the Olympic before as a woman and has lost many matches in women’s boxing. -
I’ve read that the IBF hasn’t specified what their test is. My whole line of argument is assuming she’s XX with a hormone problem.
@jon-nyc said in "Women's" Boxing at the Olympics:
I’ve read that the IBF hasn’t specified what their test is. My whole line of argument is assuming she’s XX with a hormone problem.
I’ve read the President of the IBF stated Khelif was specifically XY, but Khelif is not signing off on releasing the results.
This is pretty simply, XY, they’ve got to fly. XX, they’re the correct sex…
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I read in BBC that they did a testosterone test, and the president of the IBF said the levels of testosterone 'prove' she's an XY, which seems a bit more dubious.
@jon-nyc said in "Women's" Boxing at the Olympics:
I read in BBC that they did a testosterone test, and the president of the IBF said the levels of testosterone 'prove' she's an XY, which seems a bit more dubious.
The IBF say it was not a testosterone test, but the results are confidential. https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/02/sport/who-is-imane-khelif-olympic-boxer-intl/index.html
The IBF is far from the most trustworthy organization and has many legitimate corruption scandals, but then again, so does the IOC. Khelif has the option and ability to put all of this to rest, then sue the everloving shit out of the IBF if she is XX. She also has the option of maintaining as much privacy as she can and not answering the questions. But that will leave her open for continued scrutiny and doubts.
