Trump Disqualified in Colorado
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@jon-nyc said in Trump Disqualified in Colorado:
@Horace said in Trump Disqualified in Colorado:
@jon-nyc said in Trump Disqualified in Colorado:
From the beginning I’ve said this is unworkable and scotus should overrule.
Yet that doesn't ameliorate your disgust at Trump's electors plan. That too was unworkable and would have been smacked down by scotus.
using a constitutional provision designed to keep insurrectionists off the ballot to keep an insurrectionist off the ballot
Then why should scotus overrule?
Because it’s unworkable and vague as written, at least without enabling legislation.
Strange to call it vague, when your wording of it and as it applies to Trump is not vague at all. Is there something vague about whether Trump is an insurrectionist, or is the vagueness in the constitution itself and how it uses the term "insurrectionist"?
Just food for thought.
@Horace said in Trump Disqualified in Colorado:
Is there something vague about whether Trump is an insurrectionist
Neither Mr. Trump nor anyone has been convicted of insurrection in connection with the 1/6 doofuss affair.
I don't believe anyone has even been charged either.
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What makes it unworkable and vague is the idea that a state official has the power to decide what (for example) ‘providing aid and comfort to an enemy of the United States’ actually means.
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What makes it unworkable and vague is the idea that a state official has the power to decide what (for example) ‘providing aid and comfort to an enemy of the United States’ actually means.
@jon-nyc said in Trump Disqualified in Colorado:
What makes it unworkable and vague is the idea that a state official has the power to decide what (for example) ‘providing aid and comfort to an enemy of the United States’ actually means.
It's a good thing the 14th it uses the word "insurrectionist" then, which is obviously a much stronger and more clear claim than "aid and comfort to enemies", which could be made to fit a ham sandwich. Coincidentally, "insurrectionist" is the word people use to describe Trump, without equivocation. They get off on that unequivocal use of that word. Yet at the same time it's vague? This does not appear to be a coherent position. At what point does vagueness enter into this word "insurrectionist"?
Education is extremely important.
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It's fine to admit that scotus should in fact hold up the application of the 14th amendment, to keep Trump from the ballot. A lot of people have that position. It's coherent, for those of us who believe Trump is unequivocally an insurrectionist. Again, this is all only food for thought. Sometimes the appearance of nuance is actually incoherency.
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@jon-nyc said in Trump Disqualified in Colorado:
What makes it unworkable and vague is the idea that a state official has the power to decide what (for example) ‘providing aid and comfort to an enemy of the United States’ actually means.
It's a good thing the 14th it uses the word "insurrectionist" then, which is obviously a much stronger and more clear claim than "aid and comfort to enemies", which could be made to fit a ham sandwich. Coincidentally, "insurrectionist" is the word people use to describe Trump, without equivocation. They get off on that unequivocal use of that word. Yet at the same time it's vague? This does not appear to be a coherent position. At what point does vagueness enter into this word "insurrectionist"?
@Horace It uses both. If it were just insurrection it would be less open to abuse.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
Only non-witches get due process.
- Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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I think the point made about the 14th being enacted to limit state power and this usage strengthening state power over Federal is a very valid argument.
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@Horace It uses both. If it were just insurrection it would be less open to abuse.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
@jon-nyc said in Trump Disqualified in Colorado:
@Horace It uses both. If it were just insurrection it would be less open to abuse.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
I am aware those words appear in the amendment. I never claimed they didn't. My claim was that an insurrectionist is disqualified explicitly, regardless of other vague wording that follow the word "or". Not "and". "or". If you have a bunch of conditions strung together by "or" words, the whole condition is true if one of them is true. I hate to spell things out this explicitly but here we are.
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In which Justice Barrett agrees with me that it's not a good thing that CO is trying to control a national election via paperwork:
Link to video -
It would be immoral not to kick him off the ballot. There is blood on the hands of any judge or official who, in any capacity, can remove Trump from ballots, but does not do so.
Period.
Our morals define us. I, for one, will NEVER be complicit in another Trump presidency.
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Trump did not engage in insurrection.
Show me where he was charged and convicted.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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Call me crazy, but I believe there are a large number of people on the left that are hoping Trump wins. Some actively as it offers excuse for their anarchistic and violent desires. Others less actively, but believe there are opportunities to profit either economically or politically. Still others just through a sense of schadenfreude.
The Brad
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There is a fundamental incoherence in any "nuanced" opinion that simultaneously holds that Trump is a full stop insurrectionist, and that he should still be allowed to run for president. Anybody who thinks he is an insurrectionist, and who believes in the constitution, should hold that Trump should be barred from office. It's actually super simple. But far be it for TDS sufferers who want to maintain an air of nuance to admit basic logic and constitutionality.
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Call me crazy, but I believe there are a large number of people on the left that are hoping Trump wins. Some actively as it offers excuse for their anarchistic and violent desires. Others less actively, but believe there are opportunities to profit either economically or politically. Still others just through a sense of schadenfreude.
@LuFins-Dad said in Trump Disqualified in Colorado:
Call me crazy, but I believe there are a large number of people on the left that are hoping Trump wins. Some actively as it offers excuse for their anarchistic and violent desires. Others less actively, but believe there are opportunities to profit either economically or politically. Still others just through a sense of schadenfreude.
Totally reasonable take. Live with a hatred long enough, and you may miss it when it's gone. It becomes part of one's meaning of life.
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Personally, I have some interest in the civil unrest that will occur throughout another Trump presidency, and the tacit acceptance of it by the mainstream left. A lot of "virtuous" people would descend into madness, and they'll secretly enjoy the moral leeway their self-righteousness will give them.
Education is extremely important.
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Call me crazy, but I believe there are a large number of people on the left that are hoping Trump wins. Some actively as it offers excuse for their anarchistic and violent desires. Others less actively, but believe there are opportunities to profit either economically or politically. Still others just through a sense of schadenfreude.
@LuFins-Dad said in Trump Disqualified in Colorado:
Call me crazy, but I believe there are a large number of people on the left that are hoping Trump wins. Some actively as it offers excuse for their anarchistic and violent desires. Others less actively, but believe there are opportunities to profit either economically or politically. Still others just through a sense of schadenfreude.
I think there's another facet...
We are past due for a really hard recession. We have a huge debt problem, so jump-starting an economy through tax cuts would be almost impossible.
I think some far-sighted Dems have already pulled up the rails and would love to see the GOP train derailed by a bad economy.
