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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. Westmoreland was right?

Westmoreland was right?

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  • jon-nycJ Offline
    jon-nycJ Offline
    jon-nyc
    wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
    #4

    Could Westmoreland’s proposal to cut the Ho Chi Minh trail have won the Vietnam War for South Vietnam and the United States?

    Only for certain definitions of “win”, specifically narrow ones in favor with the military at the time.

    Thank you for your attention to this matter.

    1 Reply Last reply
    • JollyJ Offline
      JollyJ Offline
      Jolly
      wrote on last edited by
      #5

      I think the article defines victory, which was the continued existence of South Vietnam as a democracy.

      “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

      Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

      1 Reply Last reply
      • jon-nycJ Offline
        jon-nycJ Offline
        jon-nyc
        wrote on last edited by
        #6

        Was that before or after we allowed the South Vietnamese military to overthrow their government and kill their president?

        Thank you for your attention to this matter.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • JollyJ Offline
          JollyJ Offline
          Jolly
          wrote on last edited by Jolly
          #7

          Herein lies your answer:

          Only bombing of the Ho Chi Minh trail was permitted. It was ineffective in stopping the North Vietnamese invasion of South Vietnam.

          “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

          Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

          1 Reply Last reply
          • jon-nycJ Offline
            jon-nycJ Offline
            jon-nyc
            wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
            #8

            Really it doesn’t.

            Was his plan going to preserve their democracy before or after we assented to the military coup that killed their president ?

            Oh, and did they ever have a democracy? Rostow and Johnson didn’t think so.

            Thank you for your attention to this matter.

            1 Reply Last reply
            • JollyJ Offline
              JollyJ Offline
              Jolly
              wrote on last edited by
              #9

              Mattereth not.

              Since I was around at the time and was quite aware of the Domino Theory, the goal was to keep South Vietnam from falling.

              The stuff you're flinging against the wall would be nice in a perfect world, but SE Asia, Central and South America, have never been perfect worlds, have they? So, in terms of Real Politick...

              I think we would vastly prefer a democracy in name only - one friendly to the the U.S. - over a hostile communist country. Donchya think?

              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

              RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
              • JollyJ Jolly

                Mattereth not.

                Since I was around at the time and was quite aware of the Domino Theory, the goal was to keep South Vietnam from falling.

                The stuff you're flinging against the wall would be nice in a perfect world, but SE Asia, Central and South America, have never been perfect worlds, have they? So, in terms of Real Politick...

                I think we would vastly prefer a democracy in name only - one friendly to the the U.S. - over a hostile communist country. Donchya think?

                RenaudaR Offline
                RenaudaR Offline
                Renauda
                wrote on last edited by
                #10

                @Jolly said in Westmoreland was right?:

                Mattereth not.

                Since I was around at the time and was quite aware of the Domino Theory, the goal was to keep South Vietnam from falling.

                The stuff you're flinging against the wall would be nice in a perfect world, but SE Asia, Central and South America, have never been perfect worlds, have they? So, in terms of Real Politick...

                Not to derail this thread over the tragic folly that was the US military involvement in Vietnam 50 plus years ago…

                I will keep what you wrote in mind above for later when the topic of ongoing US involvement NATO or ongoing military support for the defence of Ukraine crops up here. While Europe is not SE or countries that are geographically located under the Monroe Doctrine, the majority of it is made up of imperfectly democratic states and its continued security is of vital interest to the US since 1941.

                Elbows up!

                1 Reply Last reply
                • JollyJ Offline
                  JollyJ Offline
                  Jolly
                  wrote on last edited by Jolly
                  #11

                  Comparing apples to kumquats.

                  Two major differences:

                  1. Vietnam was not a superpower. Yes, they were a proxy war for the Soviets and to a lesser extent, Red China, but AFAIK, neither had combat troops packing rifles. The reason the U.S. did not invade North Vietnam or level Hanoi, was to avoid open conflict with the Soviets.
                  2. Russia is currently directly involved in the Ukraine War and I think the U.S. is more open in their support of Ukraine, as compared to the Soviets in North Vietnam, but we certainly don't want a direct confrontation between two nuclear powers. But the huge difference is the nations that have skin in the game, when talking about the war in Ukraine. Multiple European countries, many with substantial militaries and substantial economies. The U.S. has provided more military aid than all other European countries combined. Germany, the U.K. and surprisingly, Denmark are the European countries providing most of the military aid to Ukraine.

                  https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts

                  “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                  Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • RenaudaR Offline
                    RenaudaR Offline
                    Renauda
                    wrote on last edited by Renauda
                    #12

                    Apples to kumquats be damned. Vietnam was yesterday’s news and a topic for an undergraduate Cold War or military history course.

                    Europe however is today and the US is the single leading part of the security guarantee package. Same goes for Israel and the Middle East. You know it well as anyone here.

                    Elbows up!

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • JollyJ Offline
                      JollyJ Offline
                      Jolly
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #13

                      Then tell Canada to get off its dead ass and get involved.

                      “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                      Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                      RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                      • JollyJ Jolly

                        Then tell Canada to get off its dead ass and get involved.

                        RenaudaR Offline
                        RenaudaR Offline
                        Renauda
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #14

                        @Jolly said in Westmoreland was right?:

                        Then tell Canada to get off its dead ass and get involved.

                        You know I have so shut up.

                        Elbows up!

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • JollyJ Offline
                          JollyJ Offline
                          Jolly
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #15

                          No.

                          While I may not agree with all of The Resident's policies in Ukraine and while I think we have done our fair share and more, your country is sadly lacking.

                          Sadly. Fucking. Lacking.

                          They are not the country they used to be. Why, I do not know. Too damn many urban Canadians I guess, with the backbone bred out of them.

                          “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                          Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • RenaudaR Offline
                            RenaudaR Offline
                            Renauda
                            wrote on last edited by Renauda
                            #16

                            What do you mean “no”? I’ve at least twice posted here I have been involved in trying to increase defence spending. I think you either suffer from selective memory or are so full of yourself you can’t begin to comprehend what others here tell you.

                            Now go back to your hand wringing over Vietnam.

                            Elbows up!

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • JollyJ Offline
                              JollyJ Offline
                              Jolly
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #17

                              No, I'm not going to shut up.

                              Period. Deal with it.

                              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • RenaudaR Offline
                                RenaudaR Offline
                                Renauda
                                wrote on last edited by Renauda
                                #18

                                You deal with.

                                Elbows up!

                                JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                • RenaudaR Renauda

                                  You deal with.

                                  JollyJ Offline
                                  JollyJ Offline
                                  Jolly
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #19

                                  @Renauda said in Westmoreland was right?:

                                  You deal with.

                                  Hell, finish the sentence, or did you just have a coronary?

                                  “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                  Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • RenaudaR Offline
                                    RenaudaR Offline
                                    Renauda
                                    wrote on last edited by Renauda
                                    #20

                                    You deal with…it, Sen. Claghorn, er….Beauregard, honey.

                                    Elbows up!

                                    1 Reply Last reply
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