Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?
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Leave your emotions out of it. These are empirical questions.
I don’t believe there were such things as recognized war crimes in the 1860s, but had the post-WWII regime been in place then, certainly much that was done would have qualified.
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Leave your emotions out of it. These are empirical questions.
I don’t believe there were such things as recognized war crimes in the 1860s, but had the post-WWII regime been in place then, certainly much that was done would have qualified.
The Post WW2 construct is mostly fantasy. There are war crimes by the oodles committed every day on the African continent, in the hills of Afghanistan, the edge of the Gobi and pick most any conflict in South America.
I suspect on any given day in Korea, Vietnam, Chechnya, Nicaragua or countless other wars, somebody does something wrong to somebody else. Sometimes, it's on purpose. Sometimes, it's an accident.
It's a war.
Things to know about a war.
- It is a violent, dirty business.
- The ONLY way to win, is to break your opponent's will to fight or to eradicate your opponent as an entity.
- Man is not perfect. Soldiers have emotions, and will do things out of fear and anger. They will also do some very nasty things in the cause of self-preservation. And in revenge.
- Shit happens.
- He who wins, writes the history books.
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The Post WW2 construct is mostly fantasy. There are war crimes by the oodles committed every day on the African continent, in the hills of Afghanistan, the edge of the Gobi and pick most any conflict in South America.
I suspect on any given day in Korea, Vietnam, Chechnya, Nicaragua or countless other wars, somebody does something wrong to somebody else. Sometimes, it's on purpose. Sometimes, it's an accident.
It's a war.
Things to know about a war.
- It is a violent, dirty business.
- The ONLY way to win, is to break your opponent's will to fight or to eradicate your opponent as an entity.
- Man is not perfect. Soldiers have emotions, and will do things out of fear and anger. They will also do some very nasty things in the cause of self-preservation. And in revenge.
- Shit happens.
- He who wins, writes the history books.
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5 doesn’t appear to be true anymore.
@LuFins-Dad said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
5 doesn’t appear to be true anymore.
I think it will be eventually.
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Yes, watch out, now that the Confederate statues are gone, they'll come after the Union monuments next.
@Copper said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
Yes, watch out, now that the Confederate statues are gone, they'll come after the Union monuments next.
Almost.
The statue at the Confederate grave sites in Arlington is being removed.
You know, if Union soldiers were still alive today, I don't think that would happen...
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@Copper said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
Neither Lincoln nor Grant would let it happen.
Probably because there were no monuments to Confederate war heroes when they were alive.
My understanding is that most were erected during Jim Crow.
Elbows up!
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@Copper said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
Neither Lincoln nor Grant would let it happen.
Probably because there were no monuments to Confederate war heroes when they were alive.
My understanding is that most were erected during Jim Crow.
@Renauda said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
Probably because there were a no monuments to Confederate war heroes when they were alive.
No, because they were committed to reconciliation.
They were much bigger than the trash that surrounds these monuments now.
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In the 1880's, SCOTUS ruled that the U.S. government had illegally confiscated Arlington and remanded it back to the Lee family.
I guess if it were today, they could have had those damnyankees dug up and chunked in the road ditch.
But, in the spirit of reconciliation, they sold Arlington to the government.
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@Renauda said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
Probably because there were a no monuments to Confederate war heroes when they were alive.
No, because they were committed to reconciliation.
They were much bigger than the trash that surrounds these monuments now.
@Copper said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
@Renauda said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
Probably because there were a no monuments to Confederate war heroes when they were alive.
No, because they were committed to reconciliation.
They were much bigger than the trash that surrounds these monuments now.
Glad you agree. But the fact remains neither Lincoln or Grant were alive when the monuments were erected.
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@Copper said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
@Renauda said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
Probably because there were a no monuments to Confederate war heroes when they were alive.
No, because they were committed to reconciliation.
They were much bigger than the trash that surrounds these monuments now.
Glad you agree. But the fact remains neither Lincoln or Grant were alive when the monuments were erected.
@Renauda said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
@Copper said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
@Renauda said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
Probably because there were a no monuments to Confederate war heroes when they were alive.
No, because they were committed to reconciliation.
They were much bigger than the trash that surrounds these monuments now.
Glad you agree. But the fact remains neither Lincoln or Grant were alive when the monuments were erected.
No, they weren't. But a good many Civil War veterans were still alive in 1914, when the Arlington monument was erected.
I haven't researched it, but I can't recall reading about any grand movement against having the monument.
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some updated info
about five days before the tragic deaths, the three hostages were in a different building about 1 km away from where they were shot. in that building, their captors were involved in a firefight with an israeli infantry unit. the unit sent in a dog (most units have a canine soldier for sniffing people and or explosives, not attack dogs) and this dog was killed as well as the captors but the building was not physically entered by the infantry. at some point the hostages understood the captors were killed and started moving carefully to see if they could contact israeli forces. there is evidence that they were in at least another building (they left hebrew graffiti on walls and SOS) before finally reaching the last building were they were shot. they wore track suits and bearded, so they looked very local (one was actually an arab who was also kidnapped from one of the kibbutz where he was employed)
after the fact, after they were already killed, the original building was entered to evacuate the corpse of the dog (to give it a military funeral, as is the custom) and on the dog's go pro camera they saw the hostages alive. but this was already after the incident. if they had the camera earlier, they would have maybe understood there were hostages in the vicinity. but the fog of war....information was not available to the other unit.also it seems there were previous instances of hamas fighters calling out in hebrew from windows to draw in soldiers into a trap, so everyone was on a very tense hair trigger mode.
doesnt excuse the screw up, they should not have been shot, but the shooters are being handled very delicately to try to avoid PTSD as much as possible, they were not taken out of gaza so the message would not be, you screwed up and you are out, they stayed in gaza until their units mission was done and came out today. -
some updated info
about five days before the tragic deaths, the three hostages were in a different building about 1 km away from where they were shot. in that building, their captors were involved in a firefight with an israeli infantry unit. the unit sent in a dog (most units have a canine soldier for sniffing people and or explosives, not attack dogs) and this dog was killed as well as the captors but the building was not physically entered by the infantry. at some point the hostages understood the captors were killed and started moving carefully to see if they could contact israeli forces. there is evidence that they were in at least another building (they left hebrew graffiti on walls and SOS) before finally reaching the last building were they were shot. they wore track suits and bearded, so they looked very local (one was actually an arab who was also kidnapped from one of the kibbutz where he was employed)
after the fact, after they were already killed, the original building was entered to evacuate the corpse of the dog (to give it a military funeral, as is the custom) and on the dog's go pro camera they saw the hostages alive. but this was already after the incident. if they had the camera earlier, they would have maybe understood there were hostages in the vicinity. but the fog of war....information was not available to the other unit.also it seems there were previous instances of hamas fighters calling out in hebrew from windows to draw in soldiers into a trap, so everyone was on a very tense hair trigger mode.
doesnt excuse the screw up, they should not have been shot, but the shooters are being handled very delicately to try to avoid PTSD as much as possible, they were not taken out of gaza so the message would not be, you screwed up and you are out, they stayed in gaza until their units mission was done and came out today.Thanks for the additional info, bach.
Thanks too for bringing us back to the original topic.
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Now, back to thread drift...
Background
The American Civil War ended in 1865, but it took many decades to heal the war’s bitter wounds. President William McKinley, a former Union soldier who would one day sit in the Oval Office, committed himself to healing the nation’s wounds. After the Spanish American War ended in the 1890s, he proposed building a memorial to reconciliation. His hope was that the Memorial would help heal the bitter sectionalism between the North and South and honor the many Southern soldiers whose contributions had helped to secure U.S. victory in the Spanish American War.Moses Ezekiel, the most prominent Jewish American sculptor of the American Renaissance (1870-1945), built the Reconciliation Memorial from 1912-1914. It features thirty-two full sized figures cast in bronze, depicting the universal experience families faced when their lives were interrupted by a call to combat. It was Ezekiel’s culminating work and his grave. The Memorial is surrounded by four-hundred graves in Section 16 of Arlington National Cemetery.
One in a series dedicated to national healing and peacemaking—including the Memorial Bridge that links Virginia to Washington, D.C.—the Reconciliation Memorial was dedicated in 1914. This was the result of the combined efforts of four U.S. presidents: William McKinley, Howard Taft, Teddy Roosevelt, and Woodrow Wilson.
Every U.S. president, from William McKinley to Barack Obama in 2009, has placed an honorary wreath at the Memorial’s base in a formal ceremony. After 2009, however, this ceremony stopped.
In the aftermath of George Floyd’s death and the Black Lives Matter protests, momentum grew to destroy historic American monuments and memorials. Violent rioters defaced and vandalized the Lincoln Memorial and a World War One memorial, among many others.
https://thevirginiacouncil.org/reconciliation-memorial-issue-brief/
