Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?
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Perhaps some indication of the thinking, though not an explanation.
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6-10 don’t seem to be anywhere near a causal chain for the killings. This guy was really set on 10.
It is ironic that most of the Palestinian deaths have as a “but for” cause at least one war crime committed by Hamas.
Now we have what might well be the first documented Israeli war crime and the victims are three Israeli hostages.
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Leave your emotions out of it. These are empirical questions.
I don’t believe there were such things as recognized war crimes in the 1860s, but had the post-WWII regime been in place then, certainly much that was done would have qualified.
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
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Leave your emotions out of it. These are empirical questions.
I don’t believe there were such things as recognized war crimes in the 1860s, but had the post-WWII regime been in place then, certainly much that was done would have qualified.
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Leave your emotions out of it. These are empirical questions.
I don’t believe there were such things as recognized war crimes in the 1860s, but had the post-WWII regime been in place then, certainly much that was done would have qualified.
The Post WW2 construct is mostly fantasy. There are war crimes by the oodles committed every day on the African continent, in the hills of Afghanistan, the edge of the Gobi and pick most any conflict in South America.
I suspect on any given day in Korea, Vietnam, Chechnya, Nicaragua or countless other wars, somebody does something wrong to somebody else. Sometimes, it's on purpose. Sometimes, it's an accident.
It's a war.
Things to know about a war.
- It is a violent, dirty business.
- The ONLY way to win, is to break your opponent's will to fight or to eradicate your opponent as an entity.
- Man is not perfect. Soldiers have emotions, and will do things out of fear and anger. They will also do some very nasty things in the cause of self-preservation. And in revenge.
- Shit happens.
- He who wins, writes the history books.
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The Post WW2 construct is mostly fantasy. There are war crimes by the oodles committed every day on the African continent, in the hills of Afghanistan, the edge of the Gobi and pick most any conflict in South America.
I suspect on any given day in Korea, Vietnam, Chechnya, Nicaragua or countless other wars, somebody does something wrong to somebody else. Sometimes, it's on purpose. Sometimes, it's an accident.
It's a war.
Things to know about a war.
- It is a violent, dirty business.
- The ONLY way to win, is to break your opponent's will to fight or to eradicate your opponent as an entity.
- Man is not perfect. Soldiers have emotions, and will do things out of fear and anger. They will also do some very nasty things in the cause of self-preservation. And in revenge.
- Shit happens.
- He who wins, writes the history books.
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5 doesn’t appear to be true anymore.
@LuFins-Dad said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
5 doesn’t appear to be true anymore.
I think it will be eventually.
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Yes, watch out, now that the Confederate statues are gone, they'll come after the Union monuments next.
@Copper said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
Yes, watch out, now that the Confederate statues are gone, they'll come after the Union monuments next.
Almost.
The statue at the Confederate grave sites in Arlington is being removed.
You know, if Union soldiers were still alive today, I don't think that would happen...
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@Copper said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
Neither Lincoln nor Grant would let it happen.
Probably because there were no monuments to Confederate war heroes when they were alive.
My understanding is that most were erected during Jim Crow.
Elbows up!
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@Copper said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
Neither Lincoln nor Grant would let it happen.
Probably because there were no monuments to Confederate war heroes when they were alive.
My understanding is that most were erected during Jim Crow.
@Renauda said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
Probably because there were a no monuments to Confederate war heroes when they were alive.
No, because they were committed to reconciliation.
They were much bigger than the trash that surrounds these monuments now.
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In the 1880's, SCOTUS ruled that the U.S. government had illegally confiscated Arlington and remanded it back to the Lee family.
I guess if it were today, they could have had those damnyankees dug up and chunked in the road ditch.
But, in the spirit of reconciliation, they sold Arlington to the government.
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@Renauda said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
Probably because there were a no monuments to Confederate war heroes when they were alive.
No, because they were committed to reconciliation.
They were much bigger than the trash that surrounds these monuments now.
@Copper said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
@Renauda said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
Probably because there were a no monuments to Confederate war heroes when they were alive.
No, because they were committed to reconciliation.
They were much bigger than the trash that surrounds these monuments now.
Glad you agree. But the fact remains neither Lincoln or Grant were alive when the monuments were erected.
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@Copper said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
@Renauda said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
Probably because there were a no monuments to Confederate war heroes when they were alive.
No, because they were committed to reconciliation.
They were much bigger than the trash that surrounds these monuments now.
Glad you agree. But the fact remains neither Lincoln or Grant were alive when the monuments were erected.
@Renauda said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
@Copper said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
@Renauda said in Where’s the thread about the hostage friendly fire deaths?:
Probably because there were a no monuments to Confederate war heroes when they were alive.
No, because they were committed to reconciliation.
They were much bigger than the trash that surrounds these monuments now.
Glad you agree. But the fact remains neither Lincoln or Grant were alive when the monuments were erected.
No, they weren't. But a good many Civil War veterans were still alive in 1914, when the Arlington monument was erected.
I haven't researched it, but I can't recall reading about any grand movement against having the monument.
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some updated info
about five days before the tragic deaths, the three hostages were in a different building about 1 km away from where they were shot. in that building, their captors were involved in a firefight with an israeli infantry unit. the unit sent in a dog (most units have a canine soldier for sniffing people and or explosives, not attack dogs) and this dog was killed as well as the captors but the building was not physically entered by the infantry. at some point the hostages understood the captors were killed and started moving carefully to see if they could contact israeli forces. there is evidence that they were in at least another building (they left hebrew graffiti on walls and SOS) before finally reaching the last building were they were shot. they wore track suits and bearded, so they looked very local (one was actually an arab who was also kidnapped from one of the kibbutz where he was employed)
after the fact, after they were already killed, the original building was entered to evacuate the corpse of the dog (to give it a military funeral, as is the custom) and on the dog's go pro camera they saw the hostages alive. but this was already after the incident. if they had the camera earlier, they would have maybe understood there were hostages in the vicinity. but the fog of war....information was not available to the other unit.also it seems there were previous instances of hamas fighters calling out in hebrew from windows to draw in soldiers into a trap, so everyone was on a very tense hair trigger mode.
doesnt excuse the screw up, they should not have been shot, but the shooters are being handled very delicately to try to avoid PTSD as much as possible, they were not taken out of gaza so the message would not be, you screwed up and you are out, they stayed in gaza until their units mission was done and came out today. -
some updated info
about five days before the tragic deaths, the three hostages were in a different building about 1 km away from where they were shot. in that building, their captors were involved in a firefight with an israeli infantry unit. the unit sent in a dog (most units have a canine soldier for sniffing people and or explosives, not attack dogs) and this dog was killed as well as the captors but the building was not physically entered by the infantry. at some point the hostages understood the captors were killed and started moving carefully to see if they could contact israeli forces. there is evidence that they were in at least another building (they left hebrew graffiti on walls and SOS) before finally reaching the last building were they were shot. they wore track suits and bearded, so they looked very local (one was actually an arab who was also kidnapped from one of the kibbutz where he was employed)
after the fact, after they were already killed, the original building was entered to evacuate the corpse of the dog (to give it a military funeral, as is the custom) and on the dog's go pro camera they saw the hostages alive. but this was already after the incident. if they had the camera earlier, they would have maybe understood there were hostages in the vicinity. but the fog of war....information was not available to the other unit.also it seems there were previous instances of hamas fighters calling out in hebrew from windows to draw in soldiers into a trap, so everyone was on a very tense hair trigger mode.
doesnt excuse the screw up, they should not have been shot, but the shooters are being handled very delicately to try to avoid PTSD as much as possible, they were not taken out of gaza so the message would not be, you screwed up and you are out, they stayed in gaza until their units mission was done and came out today.Thanks for the additional info, bach.
Thanks too for bringing us back to the original topic.
