Time to rename the clouds
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Time to rename the clouds:
Fine, yeah, Hitler statues go right down.
They were all taken down decades ago. There aren't any Hitler statues. The fascists have already won.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Time to rename the clouds:
Fine, yeah, Hitler statues go right down.
They were all taken down decades ago. There aren't any Hitler statues. The fascists have already won.
@Doctor-Phibes said in Time to rename the clouds:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Time to rename the clouds:
Fine, yeah, Hitler statues go right down.
They were all taken down decades ago. There aren't any Hitler statues. The fascists have already won.
“If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.”
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Time to rename the clouds:
Fine, yeah, Hitler statues go right down.
They were all taken down decades ago. There aren't any Hitler statues. The fascists have already won.
@Doctor-Phibes said in Time to rename the clouds:
There aren't any Hitler statues.
You have to know where to look.
A sculpture of German Nazi leader Adolf Hitler kneeling in a childlike pose has sold for $17.2 million in an auction held by Christie’s, fetching more than was expected for the controversial piece.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Time to rename the clouds:
You don't think there's any correlation between erasing history and something like this?
I don't think we should erase history. I think learning about history would be a really great idea. Many people I speak to casually are surprisingly ignorant about history, and don't think the names of buildings have much of an impact on that. I don't see that renaming a city is doing that. I think that people not reading history books in favour of reality TV has a much bigger impact.
I don't think it's necessary to continue to honour people who did really bad things. If you're going to leave a statue up of, say, Oliver Cromwell, outside the Houses of Parliament, let's at least tell people about how he butchered the Irish. I'd prefer that they put the statue in a museum where it belongs.
@Doctor-Phibes said in Time to rename the clouds:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Time to rename the clouds:
You don't think there's any correlation between erasing history and something like this?
I don't think we should erase history. I think learning about history would be a really great idea. Many people I speak to casually are surprisingly ignorant about history, and don't think the names of buildings have much of an impact on that. I don't see that renaming a city is doing that. I think that people not reading history books in favour of reality TV has a much bigger impact.
I don't think it's necessary to continue to honour people who did really bad things. If you're going to leave a statue up of, say, Oliver Cromwell, outside the Houses of Parliament, let's at least tell people about how he butchered the Irish. I'd prefer that they put the statue in a museum where it belongs.
A lot of books that I’ve read argue that Cromwell wasn’t really as despicable as the common opinion paints him, that his responses to certain provocations were perfectly in line with common practice of the 1600s, and was actually far less in many ways than what the Irish did to their own people and certainly did to the English settlers. It’s actually similar in a lot of ways to Israel and Palestine.
The Brad
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@Doctor-Phibes said in Time to rename the clouds:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Time to rename the clouds:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Time to rename the clouds:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Time to rename the clouds:
You don't think there's any correlation between erasing history and something like this?
I don't think we should erase history. I think learning about history would be a really great idea. Many people I speak to casually are surprisingly ignorant about history, and don't think the names of buildings have much of an impact on that. I don't see that renaming a city is doing that. I think that people not reading history books in favour of reality TV has a much bigger impact.
People are far more familiar with the name of the street on which they live than they are television shows. And the names of places tell the story of the history of that place in ways that television shows can't.
Removing what's come before you and what's shaped the modern day is cutting your own culture off at the knees. And every culture that has done so has ultimately perished.
So have those who stay too rigid, too, of course.
Those that find a balance between honoring the past while changing with the needs of the day are the ones that survive.
I don't think it's necessary to continue to honour people who did really bad things.
First of all, go find me someone who has shaped history who doesn't fit that description.
Second, I don't think that's an adequate enough view of what things like statues are. All physical objects change in their meaning as time passes. Photos, statues, place names, your parents' VCR. It's just what happens. Those statues may have been erected by a localized group to honor a particular man, but now those statues also serve as a reminder about a certain time and place, and someone who's responsible for where we are today, for better or worse. That's a far more accurate depiction of history than some cartoonish idea of "we're morally superior in every way to our predecessors."
OK, let's get silly for a moment. Does anybody think it would be OK to have a statue of Hitler outside the Reichstag? How about Stalin, or Mao? If not, then what about Napoleon? At what point is it OK to have a statue of some freaking monster, because in my humble opinion Oliver Cromwell wasn't just a guy who did bad things, he was a monster. And yet there he stands, outside the mother of parliaments. Not because he killed a king, who really had it coming. Because of all the other stuff.
Fine, yeah, Hitler statues go right down. Then the Cromwell stuff. Then maybe we get rid of confederate soldiers, too, like Lee and Jackson. Maybe after that we go after other slave owners like Jefferson and Washington. Then maybe after that we go after portraits of Shakespeare. Then maybe after that we destroy some JFK shit.
Where's the line then?
Oh, and who gets to play the fun game of Chairman to decide what's worthy of being erected and what isn't?
There was a painter who was visiting our university in Oz who couldn't return home because he had the audacity to paint portraits of shitty historical and political figures. So that people would remember.
I guess you'd side with the Chinese government and want his paintings to be removed, too, because they contained portraits of corrupt and brutal politicians?
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@Doctor-Phibes said in Time to rename the clouds:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Time to rename the clouds:
You don't think there's any correlation between erasing history and something like this?
I don't think we should erase history. I think learning about history would be a really great idea. Many people I speak to casually are surprisingly ignorant about history, and don't think the names of buildings have much of an impact on that. I don't see that renaming a city is doing that. I think that people not reading history books in favour of reality TV has a much bigger impact.
I don't think it's necessary to continue to honour people who did really bad things. If you're going to leave a statue up of, say, Oliver Cromwell, outside the Houses of Parliament, let's at least tell people about how he butchered the Irish. I'd prefer that they put the statue in a museum where it belongs.
A lot of books that I’ve read argue that Cromwell wasn’t really as despicable as the common opinion paints him, that his responses to certain provocations were perfectly in line with common practice of the 1600s, and was actually far less in many ways than what the Irish did to their own people and certainly did to the English settlers. It’s actually similar in a lot of ways to Israel and Palestine.
@LuFins-Dad said in Time to rename the clouds:
A lot of books that I’ve read argue that Cromwell wasn’t really as despicable as the common opinion paints him, that his responses to certain provocations were perfectly in line with common practice of the 1600s, and was actually far less in many ways than what the Irish did to their own people and certainly did to the English settlers. It’s actually similar in a lot of ways to Israel and Palestine.
Well, he certainly wasn't alone in his barbarism.
Isn't making excuses for this behaviour simply moral relativism, something we've been told is a Very Bad Thing?
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If not, then what about Napoleon?
Napoleon statues should stay. So should all those of Nelson.
Beethoven and Liszt as well.
@Renauda said in Time to rename the clouds:
Beethoven and Liszt as well.
I draw the line at Johann Strauss.
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I had a discussion with a conservative Christian friend of mine, who is I stress a very good and caring person I get on very well with, who essentially said that Darwin was a very bad man because he had antiquated views about genetics, and henceforth his theory was tainted with racism and evil.
I pointed out that one of the founding fathers of his own church, Martin Luther, was a raging anti-semite.
Where do you go with that? We agreed to disagree, but it's clear that people are selective in who they choose to condemn.
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@Renauda said in Time to rename the clouds:
Beethoven and Liszt as well.
I draw the line at Johann Strauss.
@Doctor-Phibes said in Time to rename the clouds:
@Renauda said in Time to rename the clouds:
Beethoven and Liszt as well.
I draw the line at Johann Strauss.
Jr. or Sr. ?
My line is drawn at Carl Orff!
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@Doctor-Phibes said in Time to rename the clouds:
@Renauda said in Time to rename the clouds:
Beethoven and Liszt as well.
I draw the line at Johann Strauss.
Jr. or Sr. ?
My line is drawn at Carl Orff!
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@Renauda said in Time to rename the clouds:
Which brings us to the question of Pitt the Younger? Should he stay or should he go?
They should have an enormous statue of that gentleman in the city that is fortunate enough to bear his name.
It would only be just, since in the town I used to live in they had a likeness of his great nemesis, Charles James Fox.
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Time to rename the nation's capital.
And, by the way, weren't the Angles from Jutland and parts like that conquerors?
Time to rename England.
@George-K said in Time to rename the clouds:
Time to rename the nation's capital.
And, by the way, weren't the Angles from Jutland and parts like that conquerors?
Time to rename England.
The nation's capital? How about the nation itself? Amerigo Vespucci was a major slaver (and killer). Heck, african tribes enslaved many other africans. Even the JEWS were slaves. See... I made this historical AND current at the same time.
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@George-K said in Time to rename the clouds:
Time to rename the nation's capital.
And, by the way, weren't the Angles from Jutland and parts like that conquerors?
Time to rename England.
The nation's capital? How about the nation itself? Amerigo Vespucci was a major slaver (and killer). Heck, african tribes enslaved many other africans. Even the JEWS were slaves. See... I made this historical AND current at the same time.
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I actually enjoy this a bit, now. For example, my buddies will be talking about football, such as the Chiefs vs the Cowboys and I'll quickly demonstrate the racist aspect to each team. I even had a very liberal friend say he was going to move to Savannah so I quickly gave him a history of why that name is racist. I'm the life of the party, trust me. Just don't ask what kind of party.
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@George-K said in Time to rename the clouds:
Time to rename the nation's capital.
And, by the way, weren't the Angles from Jutland and parts like that conquerors?
Time to rename England.
The nation's capital? How about the nation itself? Amerigo Vespucci was a major slaver (and killer). Heck, african tribes enslaved many other africans. Even the JEWS were slaves. See... I made this historical AND current at the same time.
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I actually enjoy this a bit, now. For example, my buddies will be talking about football, such as the Chiefs vs the Cowboys and I'll quickly demonstrate the racist aspect to each team. I even had a very liberal friend say he was going to move to Savannah so I quickly gave him a history of why that name is racist. I'm the life of the party, trust me. Just don't ask what kind of party.
