Millions for Ukraine
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I suppose the FoxNews reporting and @Jolly's reception of it fit the larger trend of Republicans' waning support for Ukraine.
Not sure who is leading whom. Are the likes of FoxNews and TuCa leading the Republicans to reduce support for Ukraine, or are the likes of FoxNews and TuCa just read the sentiments in the wind and say the things that more and more Republicans want to hear on this matter. Or maybe this is simply the subset more receptive to Putin/Russia's propaganda.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/04/ukraine-poll-republican-support/
Among Republicans, support now stands at 50 percent, a drop of 18 percentage points since July 2022 and 30 points since the opening weeks of Russia’s full-scale invasion. Democratic support stands at 77 percent, barely changed from 79 percent in the summer of 2022. Among independents, support has fallen eight points to 60 percent.
A bit weird on the Democratic side too because the Democrats are usually more anti-war in recent history, yet this time they are showing sustained high level of support for Ukraine.
@Axtremus said in Millions for Ukraine:
I suppose the FoxNews reporting and @Jolly's reception of it fit the larger trend of Republicans' waning support for Ukraine.
Not sure who is leading whom. Are the likes of FoxNews and TuCa leading the Republicans to reduce support for Ukraine, or are the likes of FoxNews and TuCa just read the sentiments in the wind and say the things that more and more Republicans want to hear on this matter. Or maybe this is simply the subset more receptive to Putin/Russia's propaganda.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/04/ukraine-poll-republican-support/
Among Republicans, support now stands at 50 percent, a drop of 18 percentage points since July 2022 and 30 points since the opening weeks of Russia’s full-scale invasion. Democratic support stands at 77 percent, barely changed from 79 percent in the summer of 2022. Among independents, support has fallen eight points to 60 percent.
A bit weird on the Democratic side too because the Democrats are usually more anti-war in recent history, yet this time they are showing sustained high level of support for Ukraine.
I think there are several factors at play.
- The America First folks, who don't think we have any business over there in the first place.
- Americans who are wondering why more support hasn't come from Europeans, since this is happening in their backyard.
- People that are concerned that the American armed forces may not have what they need to sustain a major action. (Think Taiwan or similar).
- Americans that are worried how much money is being lost to Ukranian corruption.
- People who are wondering what we are actually trying to accomplish in Ukraine. If Ukraine had air parity (which we have taken pains to make sure they didn't have), this would be a much different war.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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@Axtremus said in Millions for Ukraine:
I suppose the FoxNews reporting and @Jolly's reception of it fit the larger trend of Republicans' waning support for Ukraine.
Not sure who is leading whom. Are the likes of FoxNews and TuCa leading the Republicans to reduce support for Ukraine, or are the likes of FoxNews and TuCa just read the sentiments in the wind and say the things that more and more Republicans want to hear on this matter. Or maybe this is simply the subset more receptive to Putin/Russia's propaganda.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/04/ukraine-poll-republican-support/
Among Republicans, support now stands at 50 percent, a drop of 18 percentage points since July 2022 and 30 points since the opening weeks of Russia’s full-scale invasion. Democratic support stands at 77 percent, barely changed from 79 percent in the summer of 2022. Among independents, support has fallen eight points to 60 percent.
A bit weird on the Democratic side too because the Democrats are usually more anti-war in recent history, yet this time they are showing sustained high level of support for Ukraine.
I think there are several factors at play.
- The America First folks, who don't think we have any business over there in the first place.
- Americans who are wondering why more support hasn't come from Europeans, since this is happening in their backyard.
- People that are concerned that the American armed forces may not have what they need to sustain a major action. (Think Taiwan or similar).
- Americans that are worried how much money is being lost to Ukranian corruption.
- People who are wondering what we are actually trying to accomplish in Ukraine. If Ukraine had air parity (which we have taken pains to make sure they didn't have), this would be a much different war.
@Jolly said in Millions for Ukraine:
- Americans that are worried how much money is being lost to Ukranian corruption.
Not seeing much reporting on Ukraine being “corrupt” when it comes to the war. Probably just an RWEC thing, maybe a wishful thinking sort of extension from their preferred narrative about the Biden family having some sort of corrupt interests in Ukraine, so there is a tendency to want to believe that corruption is widespread/severe in Ukraine, thinking that the worse “corruption” looks in Ukraine, the worse it will reflect on the Bidens.
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Americans who are wondering why more support hasn't come from Europeans, since this is happening in their backyard.
Perhaps they should then make an effort to inform themselves by exploring information sources other than Fox News, Tucker Carlson and other US MSM outlets just what Europe is doing materially to support Ukraine in this war. European countries have stepped up to the plate this time and are doing what they can manage to support Ukraine.
Ironically the ones wavering, specifically Hungary and, most recently, Slovakia, are ones who have conveniently forgotten their own lessons from history and believe that the mindset in the Kremlin towards small countries in Central and Eastern Europe has substantially changed for the better since 1956 and 1968.
People that are concerned that the American armed forces may not have what they need to sustain a major action. (Think Taiwan or similar).
Perhaps they should understand that the “similar” major action which purportedly concerns them is Putin’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine that began in 2014 and has escalated to what it is today. Whether they like it or not, the US is the only continental military power in the European theatre of operations singularly capable of containing and deterring Russian hegemony. It has been that way since 1945 and remains a cornerstone of US foreign policy guaranteeing European security.
Elbows up!
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If you want to find out about what's going on in Europe, the US media is generally not a very good place to look.
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@Axtremus said in Millions for Ukraine:
I suppose the FoxNews reporting and @Jolly's reception of it fit the larger trend of Republicans' waning support for Ukraine.
Not sure who is leading whom. Are the likes of FoxNews and TuCa leading the Republicans to reduce support for Ukraine, or are the likes of FoxNews and TuCa just read the sentiments in the wind and say the things that more and more Republicans want to hear on this matter. Or maybe this is simply the subset more receptive to Putin/Russia's propaganda.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/04/ukraine-poll-republican-support/
Among Republicans, support now stands at 50 percent, a drop of 18 percentage points since July 2022 and 30 points since the opening weeks of Russia’s full-scale invasion. Democratic support stands at 77 percent, barely changed from 79 percent in the summer of 2022. Among independents, support has fallen eight points to 60 percent.
A bit weird on the Democratic side too because the Democrats are usually more anti-war in recent history, yet this time they are showing sustained high level of support for Ukraine.
I think there are several factors at play.
- The America First folks, who don't think we have any business over there in the first place.
- Americans who are wondering why more support hasn't come from Europeans, since this is happening in their backyard.
- People that are concerned that the American armed forces may not have what they need to sustain a major action. (Think Taiwan or similar).
- Americans that are worried how much money is being lost to Ukranian corruption.
- People who are wondering what we are actually trying to accomplish in Ukraine. If Ukraine had air parity (which we have taken pains to make sure they didn't have), this would be a much different war.
@Jolly said in Millions for Ukraine:
- The America First folks, who don't think we have any business over there in the first place.
- Americans who are wondering why more support hasn't come from Europeans, since this is happening in their backyard.
- People that are concerned that the American armed forces may not have what they need to sustain a major action. (Think Taiwan or similar).
- Americans that are worried how much money is being lost to Ukranian corruption.
- People who are wondering what we are actually trying to accomplish in Ukraine. If Ukraine had air parity (which we have taken pains to make sure they didn't have), this would be a much different war.
- People who believe all the rather foolish conspiracy theories regarding the Biden's and Ukraine.
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- People who inexplicably believe that Vladimir Putin's Russia is the last defence for traditional Christian values against the woke hordes
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- People who inexplicably believe that Vladimir Putin's Russia is the last defence for traditional Christian values against the woke hordes
I find that quite a head scratcher as well.
Unfortunately I know a few up here who subscribe to that vulgar fallacy.
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The corruption stuff is not new and has been reported on multiple times.
That's just one of many.
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Americans who are wondering why more support hasn't come from Europeans, since this is happening in their backyard.
Perhaps they should then make an effort to inform themselves by exploring information sources other than Fox News, Tucker Carlson and other US MSM outlets just what Europe is doing materially to support Ukraine in this war. European countries have stepped up to the plate this time and are doing what they can manage to support Ukraine.
Ironically the ones wavering, specifically Hungary and, most recently, Slovakia, are ones who have conveniently forgotten their own lessons from history and believe that the mindset in the Kremlin towards small countries in Central and Eastern Europe has substantially changed for the better since 1956 and 1968.
People that are concerned that the American armed forces may not have what they need to sustain a major action. (Think Taiwan or similar).
Perhaps they should understand that the “similar” major action which purportedly concerns them is Putin’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine that began in 2014 and has escalated to what it is today. Whether they like it or not, the US is the only continental military power in the European theatre of operations singularly capable of containing and deterring Russian hegemony. It has been that way since 1945 and remains a cornerstone of US foreign policy guaranteeing European security.
@Renauda said in Millions for Ukraine:
Americans who are wondering why more support hasn't come from Europeans, since this is happening in their backyard.
Perhaps they should then make an effort to inform themselves by exploring information sources other than Fox News, Tucker Carlson and other US MSM outlets just what Europe is doing materially to support Ukraine in this war. European countries have stepped up to the plate this time and are doing what they can manage to support Ukraine.
Ironically the ones wavering, specifically Hungary and, most recently, Slovakia, are ones who have conveniently forgotten their own lessons from history and believe that the mindset in the Kremlin towards small countries in Central and Eastern Europe has substantially changed for the better since 1956 and 1968.
People that are concerned that the American armed forces may not have what they need to sustain a major action. (Think Taiwan or similar).
Perhaps they should understand that the “similar” major action which purportedly concerns them is Putin’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine that began in 2014 and has escalated to what it is today. Whether they like it or not, the US is the only continental military power in the European theatre of operations singularly capable of containing and deterring Russian hegemony. It has been that way since 1945 and remains a cornerstone of US foreign policy guaranteeing European security.
Perhaps the Europeans need to understand that Uncle Sugar has more irons in the fire than just Ukraine. Since WW2, a lot of European defense has depended on the United States. Maybe it's time they were weaned, at least somewhat.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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I noticed it and agree with what you wrote about air power.
Short of setting up a no fly zone - which I contend remains impracticable and ill advised at this point - I believe the West has made a strategic error in not supplying aircraft. Have always thought the argument that supply of more sophisticated weaponry and air power would force the Russians to escalate was a straw man and cop out. Escalate what and how?
On the other hand, it takes time to train even experienced pilots on aircraft like F-16 and what Ukraine will receive may well be too little, too late.
Elbows up!
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@Renauda said in Millions for Ukraine:
Americans who are wondering why more support hasn't come from Europeans, since this is happening in their backyard.
Perhaps they should then make an effort to inform themselves by exploring information sources other than Fox News, Tucker Carlson and other US MSM outlets just what Europe is doing materially to support Ukraine in this war. European countries have stepped up to the plate this time and are doing what they can manage to support Ukraine.
Ironically the ones wavering, specifically Hungary and, most recently, Slovakia, are ones who have conveniently forgotten their own lessons from history and believe that the mindset in the Kremlin towards small countries in Central and Eastern Europe has substantially changed for the better since 1956 and 1968.
People that are concerned that the American armed forces may not have what they need to sustain a major action. (Think Taiwan or similar).
Perhaps they should understand that the “similar” major action which purportedly concerns them is Putin’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine that began in 2014 and has escalated to what it is today. Whether they like it or not, the US is the only continental military power in the European theatre of operations singularly capable of containing and deterring Russian hegemony. It has been that way since 1945 and remains a cornerstone of US foreign policy guaranteeing European security.
Perhaps the Europeans need to understand that Uncle Sugar has more irons in the fire than just Ukraine. Since WW2, a lot of European defense has depended on the United States. Maybe it's time they were weaned, at least somewhat.
Perhaps the Europeans need to understand that Uncle Sugar has more irons in the fire than just Ukraine. Since WW2, a lot of European defense has depended on the United States. Maybe it's time they were weaned, at least somewhat.
Sure. Let Putin steamroller Ukraine some more then begin an extortion campaign to subjugate the rest of Europe to the Kremlin’s will. After all the Ukrainians are only too happy to pay with their own blood to hold the line while the bean counters and populists in the West check their balance sheets and political approval ratings.
Ukraine is asking for material, not your sons.
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Perhaps the Europeans need to understand that Uncle Sugar has more irons in the fire than just Ukraine. Since WW2, a lot of European defense has depended on the United States. Maybe it's time they were weaned, at least somewhat.
Sure. Let Putin steamroller Ukraine some more then begin an extortion campaign to subjugate the rest of Europe to the Kremlin’s will. After all the Ukrainians are only too happy to pay with their own blood to hold the line while the bean counters and populists in the West check their balance sheets and political approval ratings.
Ukraine is asking for material, not your sons.
@Renauda said in Millions for Ukraine:
Perhaps the Europeans need to understand that Uncle Sugar has more irons in the fire than just Ukraine. Since WW2, a lot of European defense has depended on the United States. Maybe it's time they were weaned, at least somewhat.
Sure. Let Putin steamroller Ukraine some more then begin an extortion campaign to subjugate the rest of Europe to the Kremlin’s will. After all the Ukrainians are only too happy to pay with their own blood to hold the line while the bean counters and populists in the West check their balance sheets and political approval ratings.
Ukraine is asking for material, not your sons.
Amen. And i agree about air power.
Bailing on Ukraine now is a virtual guarantee that Xi will invade Taiwan sooner rather than later.
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I noticed it and agree with what you wrote about air power.
Short of setting up a no fly zone - which I contend remains impracticable and ill advised at this point - I believe the West has made a strategic error in not supplying aircraft. Have always thought the argument that supply of more sophisticated weaponry and air power would force the Russians to escalate was a straw man and cop out. Escalate what and how?
On the other hand, it takes time to train even experienced pilots on aircraft like F-16 and what Ukraine will receive may well be too little, too late.
@Renauda said in Millions for Ukraine:
I noticed it and agree with what you wrote.
Short of setting up a no fly zone - which I contend remains impracticable and ill advised at this point - I believe the West has made a strategic error in not supplying aircraft. Have always thought the argument that supply of more sophisticated weaponry and air power would force the Russians to escalate was a straw man and cop out. Escalate what and how?On the other hand, it takes time to train even experienced pilots on aircraft like F-16 and what Ukraine will receive may well be too little, too late.
NATO has already tried some of Ukraine's better pilots on the F-16. 90 days, and they're ready to fly missions. That's not the bulk of pilots. I suspect the average ones will take longer. The first F-16's will be coming from Denmark and the Netherlands, and should be operational in theater by the first of the year. More will follow.
I don't think anything like air superiority will be achieved, especially since I don't think they'll be getting the latest F-16 radar mods, but if they get shoot and forget missiles, it gives them a big defensive boost in their own airspace.
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Aid to Ukraine and Israel in doubt as House speaker says he won’t support deal
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A bargain in which southern border security would be beefed up in exchange for foreign aid is looking increasingly unlikelyHouse of Representatives Speaker Johnson says he will not support the deal that the Senate is working on concerning aids to Ukraine, Israel, and border security.
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Trump’s against a deal. He wants border chaos all year.
Dems should put up a clean border bill and troll them.
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
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Trump’s against a deal. He wants border chaos all year.
Dems should put up a clean border bill and troll them.
@jon-nyc said in Millions for Ukraine:
Trump’s against a deal. He wants border chaos all year.
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Trump’s against a deal. He wants border chaos all year.
Dems should put up a clean border bill and troll them.
@jon-nyc said in Millions for Ukraine:
Trump’s against a deal. He wants border chaos all year.
Dems should put up a clean border bill and troll them.
Biden wants an open border.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
