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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Millions for Ukraine

Millions for Ukraine

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  • Doctor PhibesD Offline
    Doctor PhibesD Offline
    Doctor Phibes
    wrote on last edited by
    #2

    What has this got to do with Ukraine? This sounds like a supply chain issue.

    I was only joking

    1 Reply Last reply
    • JollyJ Offline
      JollyJ Offline
      Jolly
      wrote on last edited by
      #3

      I'm sure it is. But it's an interesting juxtaposition and a point of debate... The U.S. has spent billions in Ukraine. At what point do the expenditures impact the U.S. military? And do we care?

      “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

      Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

      Doctor PhibesD 1 Reply Last reply
      • JollyJ Jolly

        I'm sure it is. But it's an interesting juxtaposition and a point of debate... The U.S. has spent billions in Ukraine. At what point do the expenditures impact the U.S. military? And do we care?

        Doctor PhibesD Offline
        Doctor PhibesD Offline
        Doctor Phibes
        wrote on last edited by
        #4

        @Jolly said in Millions for Ukraine:

        I'm sure it is. But it's an interesting juxtaposition and a point of debate... The U.S. has spent billions in Ukraine. At what point do the expenditures impact the U.S. military? And do we care?

        Save now, pay later?

        It could be a lot worse - the expenditure is impacting the US military a lot less than the money spent on Iraq did, for example.

        I was only joking

        1 Reply Last reply
        • taiwan_girlT Offline
          taiwan_girlT Offline
          taiwan_girl
          wrote on last edited by
          #5

          A report from the Costs of War project at Brown University revealed that 20 years of post-9/11 wars have cost the U.S. an estimated $8 trillion

          And, doesn't the military budget separate from the foreign policy budget?

          1 Reply Last reply
          • AxtremusA Offline
            AxtremusA Offline
            Axtremus
            wrote on last edited by
            #6

            I suppose the FoxNews reporting and @Jolly's reception of it fit the larger trend of Republicans' waning support for Ukraine.

            Not sure who is leading whom. Are the likes of FoxNews and TuCa leading the Republicans to reduce support for Ukraine, or are the likes of FoxNews and TuCa just read the sentiments in the wind and say the things that more and more Republicans want to hear on this matter. Or maybe this is simply the subset more receptive to Putin/Russia's propaganda.

            https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/04/ukraine-poll-republican-support/

            Among Republicans, support now stands at 50 percent, a drop of 18 percentage points since July 2022 and 30 points since the opening weeks of Russia’s full-scale invasion. Democratic support stands at 77 percent, barely changed from 79 percent in the summer of 2022. Among independents, support has fallen eight points to 60 percent.

            A bit weird on the Democratic side too because the Democrats are usually more anti-war in recent history, yet this time they are showing sustained high level of support for Ukraine.

            JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
            • AxtremusA Axtremus

              I suppose the FoxNews reporting and @Jolly's reception of it fit the larger trend of Republicans' waning support for Ukraine.

              Not sure who is leading whom. Are the likes of FoxNews and TuCa leading the Republicans to reduce support for Ukraine, or are the likes of FoxNews and TuCa just read the sentiments in the wind and say the things that more and more Republicans want to hear on this matter. Or maybe this is simply the subset more receptive to Putin/Russia's propaganda.

              https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/04/ukraine-poll-republican-support/

              Among Republicans, support now stands at 50 percent, a drop of 18 percentage points since July 2022 and 30 points since the opening weeks of Russia’s full-scale invasion. Democratic support stands at 77 percent, barely changed from 79 percent in the summer of 2022. Among independents, support has fallen eight points to 60 percent.

              A bit weird on the Democratic side too because the Democrats are usually more anti-war in recent history, yet this time they are showing sustained high level of support for Ukraine.

              JollyJ Offline
              JollyJ Offline
              Jolly
              wrote on last edited by Jolly
              #7

              @Axtremus said in Millions for Ukraine:

              I suppose the FoxNews reporting and @Jolly's reception of it fit the larger trend of Republicans' waning support for Ukraine.

              Not sure who is leading whom. Are the likes of FoxNews and TuCa leading the Republicans to reduce support for Ukraine, or are the likes of FoxNews and TuCa just read the sentiments in the wind and say the things that more and more Republicans want to hear on this matter. Or maybe this is simply the subset more receptive to Putin/Russia's propaganda.

              https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/04/ukraine-poll-republican-support/

              Among Republicans, support now stands at 50 percent, a drop of 18 percentage points since July 2022 and 30 points since the opening weeks of Russia’s full-scale invasion. Democratic support stands at 77 percent, barely changed from 79 percent in the summer of 2022. Among independents, support has fallen eight points to 60 percent.

              A bit weird on the Democratic side too because the Democrats are usually more anti-war in recent history, yet this time they are showing sustained high level of support for Ukraine.

              I think there are several factors at play.

              1. The America First folks, who don't think we have any business over there in the first place.
              2. Americans who are wondering why more support hasn't come from Europeans, since this is happening in their backyard.
              3. People that are concerned that the American armed forces may not have what they need to sustain a major action. (Think Taiwan or similar).
              4. Americans that are worried how much money is being lost to Ukranian corruption.
              5. People who are wondering what we are actually trying to accomplish in Ukraine. If Ukraine had air parity (which we have taken pains to make sure they didn't have), this would be a much different war.

              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

              AxtremusA Doctor PhibesD 2 Replies Last reply
              • JollyJ Offline
                JollyJ Offline
                Jolly
                wrote on last edited by
                #8

                The EU holds a meeting...

                https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/eu-show-support-ukraine-foreign-ministers-us-budget-deal-snub-rcna118330

                “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                1 Reply Last reply
                • JollyJ Jolly

                  @Axtremus said in Millions for Ukraine:

                  I suppose the FoxNews reporting and @Jolly's reception of it fit the larger trend of Republicans' waning support for Ukraine.

                  Not sure who is leading whom. Are the likes of FoxNews and TuCa leading the Republicans to reduce support for Ukraine, or are the likes of FoxNews and TuCa just read the sentiments in the wind and say the things that more and more Republicans want to hear on this matter. Or maybe this is simply the subset more receptive to Putin/Russia's propaganda.

                  https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/04/ukraine-poll-republican-support/

                  Among Republicans, support now stands at 50 percent, a drop of 18 percentage points since July 2022 and 30 points since the opening weeks of Russia’s full-scale invasion. Democratic support stands at 77 percent, barely changed from 79 percent in the summer of 2022. Among independents, support has fallen eight points to 60 percent.

                  A bit weird on the Democratic side too because the Democrats are usually more anti-war in recent history, yet this time they are showing sustained high level of support for Ukraine.

                  I think there are several factors at play.

                  1. The America First folks, who don't think we have any business over there in the first place.
                  2. Americans who are wondering why more support hasn't come from Europeans, since this is happening in their backyard.
                  3. People that are concerned that the American armed forces may not have what they need to sustain a major action. (Think Taiwan or similar).
                  4. Americans that are worried how much money is being lost to Ukranian corruption.
                  5. People who are wondering what we are actually trying to accomplish in Ukraine. If Ukraine had air parity (which we have taken pains to make sure they didn't have), this would be a much different war.
                  AxtremusA Offline
                  AxtremusA Offline
                  Axtremus
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #9

                  @Jolly said in Millions for Ukraine:

                  1. Americans that are worried how much money is being lost to Ukranian corruption.

                  Not seeing much reporting on Ukraine being “corrupt” when it comes to the war. Probably just an RWEC thing, maybe a wishful thinking sort of extension from their preferred narrative about the Biden family having some sort of corrupt interests in Ukraine, so there is a tendency to want to believe that corruption is widespread/severe in Ukraine, thinking that the worse “corruption” looks in Ukraine, the worse it will reflect on the Bidens.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • RenaudaR Offline
                    RenaudaR Offline
                    Renauda
                    wrote on last edited by Renauda
                    #10

                    Americans who are wondering why more support hasn't come from Europeans, since this is happening in their backyard.

                    Perhaps they should then make an effort to inform themselves by exploring information sources other than Fox News, Tucker Carlson and other US MSM outlets just what Europe is doing materially to support Ukraine in this war. European countries have stepped up to the plate this time and are doing what they can manage to support Ukraine.

                    Ironically the ones wavering, specifically Hungary and, most recently, Slovakia, are ones who have conveniently forgotten their own lessons from history and believe that the mindset in the Kremlin towards small countries in Central and Eastern Europe has substantially changed for the better since 1956 and 1968.

                    People that are concerned that the American armed forces may not have what they need to sustain a major action. (Think Taiwan or similar).

                    Perhaps they should understand that the “similar” major action which purportedly concerns them is Putin’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine that began in 2014 and has escalated to what it is today. Whether they like it or not, the US is the only continental military power in the European theatre of operations singularly capable of containing and deterring Russian hegemony. It has been that way since 1945 and remains a cornerstone of US foreign policy guaranteeing European security.

                    Elbows up!

                    JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                    • Doctor PhibesD Offline
                      Doctor PhibesD Offline
                      Doctor Phibes
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #11

                      If you want to find out about what's going on in Europe, the US media is generally not a very good place to look.

                      I was only joking

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • JollyJ Jolly

                        @Axtremus said in Millions for Ukraine:

                        I suppose the FoxNews reporting and @Jolly's reception of it fit the larger trend of Republicans' waning support for Ukraine.

                        Not sure who is leading whom. Are the likes of FoxNews and TuCa leading the Republicans to reduce support for Ukraine, or are the likes of FoxNews and TuCa just read the sentiments in the wind and say the things that more and more Republicans want to hear on this matter. Or maybe this is simply the subset more receptive to Putin/Russia's propaganda.

                        https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/04/ukraine-poll-republican-support/

                        Among Republicans, support now stands at 50 percent, a drop of 18 percentage points since July 2022 and 30 points since the opening weeks of Russia’s full-scale invasion. Democratic support stands at 77 percent, barely changed from 79 percent in the summer of 2022. Among independents, support has fallen eight points to 60 percent.

                        A bit weird on the Democratic side too because the Democrats are usually more anti-war in recent history, yet this time they are showing sustained high level of support for Ukraine.

                        I think there are several factors at play.

                        1. The America First folks, who don't think we have any business over there in the first place.
                        2. Americans who are wondering why more support hasn't come from Europeans, since this is happening in their backyard.
                        3. People that are concerned that the American armed forces may not have what they need to sustain a major action. (Think Taiwan or similar).
                        4. Americans that are worried how much money is being lost to Ukranian corruption.
                        5. People who are wondering what we are actually trying to accomplish in Ukraine. If Ukraine had air parity (which we have taken pains to make sure they didn't have), this would be a much different war.
                        Doctor PhibesD Offline
                        Doctor PhibesD Offline
                        Doctor Phibes
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #12

                        @Jolly said in Millions for Ukraine:

                        1. The America First folks, who don't think we have any business over there in the first place.
                        2. Americans who are wondering why more support hasn't come from Europeans, since this is happening in their backyard.
                        3. People that are concerned that the American armed forces may not have what they need to sustain a major action. (Think Taiwan or similar).
                        4. Americans that are worried how much money is being lost to Ukranian corruption.
                        5. People who are wondering what we are actually trying to accomplish in Ukraine. If Ukraine had air parity (which we have taken pains to make sure they didn't have), this would be a much different war.
                        1. People who believe all the rather foolish conspiracy theories regarding the Biden's and Ukraine.

                        I was only joking

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • Doctor PhibesD Offline
                          Doctor PhibesD Offline
                          Doctor Phibes
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #13
                          1. People who inexplicably believe that Vladimir Putin's Russia is the last defence for traditional Christian values against the woke hordes

                          I was only joking

                          RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                          • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes
                            1. People who inexplicably believe that Vladimir Putin's Russia is the last defence for traditional Christian values against the woke hordes
                            RenaudaR Offline
                            RenaudaR Offline
                            Renauda
                            wrote on last edited by Renauda
                            #14

                            @Doctor-Phibes

                            I find that quite a head scratcher as well.

                            Unfortunately I know a few up here who subscribe to that vulgar fallacy.

                            Elbows up!

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • JollyJ Offline
                              JollyJ Offline
                              Jolly
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #15

                              The corruption stuff is not new and has been reported on multiple times.

                              https://www.brusselstimes.com/450687/very-much-worried-senior-eu-official-fears-ukraine-aid-stolen-by-corrupt-groups

                              That's just one of many.

                              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • JollyJ Offline
                                JollyJ Offline
                                Jolly
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #16

                                Noticed y'all ignored the air parity question.

                                Might want to chew on that one.

                                “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • RenaudaR Renauda

                                  Americans who are wondering why more support hasn't come from Europeans, since this is happening in their backyard.

                                  Perhaps they should then make an effort to inform themselves by exploring information sources other than Fox News, Tucker Carlson and other US MSM outlets just what Europe is doing materially to support Ukraine in this war. European countries have stepped up to the plate this time and are doing what they can manage to support Ukraine.

                                  Ironically the ones wavering, specifically Hungary and, most recently, Slovakia, are ones who have conveniently forgotten their own lessons from history and believe that the mindset in the Kremlin towards small countries in Central and Eastern Europe has substantially changed for the better since 1956 and 1968.

                                  People that are concerned that the American armed forces may not have what they need to sustain a major action. (Think Taiwan or similar).

                                  Perhaps they should understand that the “similar” major action which purportedly concerns them is Putin’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine that began in 2014 and has escalated to what it is today. Whether they like it or not, the US is the only continental military power in the European theatre of operations singularly capable of containing and deterring Russian hegemony. It has been that way since 1945 and remains a cornerstone of US foreign policy guaranteeing European security.

                                  JollyJ Offline
                                  JollyJ Offline
                                  Jolly
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #17

                                  @Renauda said in Millions for Ukraine:

                                  Americans who are wondering why more support hasn't come from Europeans, since this is happening in their backyard.

                                  Perhaps they should then make an effort to inform themselves by exploring information sources other than Fox News, Tucker Carlson and other US MSM outlets just what Europe is doing materially to support Ukraine in this war. European countries have stepped up to the plate this time and are doing what they can manage to support Ukraine.

                                  Ironically the ones wavering, specifically Hungary and, most recently, Slovakia, are ones who have conveniently forgotten their own lessons from history and believe that the mindset in the Kremlin towards small countries in Central and Eastern Europe has substantially changed for the better since 1956 and 1968.

                                  People that are concerned that the American armed forces may not have what they need to sustain a major action. (Think Taiwan or similar).

                                  Perhaps they should understand that the “similar” major action which purportedly concerns them is Putin’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine that began in 2014 and has escalated to what it is today. Whether they like it or not, the US is the only continental military power in the European theatre of operations singularly capable of containing and deterring Russian hegemony. It has been that way since 1945 and remains a cornerstone of US foreign policy guaranteeing European security.

                                  Perhaps the Europeans need to understand that Uncle Sugar has more irons in the fire than just Ukraine. Since WW2, a lot of European defense has depended on the United States. Maybe it's time they were weaned, at least somewhat.

                                  “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                  Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                  RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                                  • RenaudaR Offline
                                    RenaudaR Offline
                                    Renauda
                                    wrote on last edited by Renauda
                                    #18

                                    @Jolly

                                    I noticed it and agree with what you wrote about air power.

                                    Short of setting up a no fly zone - which I contend remains impracticable and ill advised at this point - I believe the West has made a strategic error in not supplying aircraft. Have always thought the argument that supply of more sophisticated weaponry and air power would force the Russians to escalate was a straw man and cop out. Escalate what and how?

                                    On the other hand, it takes time to train even experienced pilots on aircraft like F-16 and what Ukraine will receive may well be too little, too late.

                                    Elbows up!

                                    JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                    • JollyJ Jolly

                                      @Renauda said in Millions for Ukraine:

                                      Americans who are wondering why more support hasn't come from Europeans, since this is happening in their backyard.

                                      Perhaps they should then make an effort to inform themselves by exploring information sources other than Fox News, Tucker Carlson and other US MSM outlets just what Europe is doing materially to support Ukraine in this war. European countries have stepped up to the plate this time and are doing what they can manage to support Ukraine.

                                      Ironically the ones wavering, specifically Hungary and, most recently, Slovakia, are ones who have conveniently forgotten their own lessons from history and believe that the mindset in the Kremlin towards small countries in Central and Eastern Europe has substantially changed for the better since 1956 and 1968.

                                      People that are concerned that the American armed forces may not have what they need to sustain a major action. (Think Taiwan or similar).

                                      Perhaps they should understand that the “similar” major action which purportedly concerns them is Putin’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine that began in 2014 and has escalated to what it is today. Whether they like it or not, the US is the only continental military power in the European theatre of operations singularly capable of containing and deterring Russian hegemony. It has been that way since 1945 and remains a cornerstone of US foreign policy guaranteeing European security.

                                      Perhaps the Europeans need to understand that Uncle Sugar has more irons in the fire than just Ukraine. Since WW2, a lot of European defense has depended on the United States. Maybe it's time they were weaned, at least somewhat.

                                      RenaudaR Offline
                                      RenaudaR Offline
                                      Renauda
                                      wrote on last edited by Renauda
                                      #19

                                      @Jolly

                                      Perhaps the Europeans need to understand that Uncle Sugar has more irons in the fire than just Ukraine. Since WW2, a lot of European defense has depended on the United States. Maybe it's time they were weaned, at least somewhat.

                                      Sure. Let Putin steamroller Ukraine some more then begin an extortion campaign to subjugate the rest of Europe to the Kremlin’s will. After all the Ukrainians are only too happy to pay with their own blood to hold the line while the bean counters and populists in the West check their balance sheets and political approval ratings.

                                      Ukraine is asking for material, not your sons.

                                      Elbows up!

                                      MikM 1 Reply Last reply
                                      • RenaudaR Renauda

                                        @Jolly

                                        Perhaps the Europeans need to understand that Uncle Sugar has more irons in the fire than just Ukraine. Since WW2, a lot of European defense has depended on the United States. Maybe it's time they were weaned, at least somewhat.

                                        Sure. Let Putin steamroller Ukraine some more then begin an extortion campaign to subjugate the rest of Europe to the Kremlin’s will. After all the Ukrainians are only too happy to pay with their own blood to hold the line while the bean counters and populists in the West check their balance sheets and political approval ratings.

                                        Ukraine is asking for material, not your sons.

                                        MikM Away
                                        MikM Away
                                        Mik
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #20

                                        @Renauda said in Millions for Ukraine:

                                        @Jolly

                                        Perhaps the Europeans need to understand that Uncle Sugar has more irons in the fire than just Ukraine. Since WW2, a lot of European defense has depended on the United States. Maybe it's time they were weaned, at least somewhat.

                                        Sure. Let Putin steamroller Ukraine some more then begin an extortion campaign to subjugate the rest of Europe to the Kremlin’s will. After all the Ukrainians are only too happy to pay with their own blood to hold the line while the bean counters and populists in the West check their balance sheets and political approval ratings.

                                        Ukraine is asking for material, not your sons.

                                        Amen. And i agree about air power.

                                        Bailing on Ukraine now is a virtual guarantee that Xi will invade Taiwan sooner rather than later.

                                        "The intelligent man who is proud of his intelligence is like the condemned man who is proud of his large cell." Simone Weil

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • RenaudaR Renauda

                                          @Jolly

                                          I noticed it and agree with what you wrote about air power.

                                          Short of setting up a no fly zone - which I contend remains impracticable and ill advised at this point - I believe the West has made a strategic error in not supplying aircraft. Have always thought the argument that supply of more sophisticated weaponry and air power would force the Russians to escalate was a straw man and cop out. Escalate what and how?

                                          On the other hand, it takes time to train even experienced pilots on aircraft like F-16 and what Ukraine will receive may well be too little, too late.

                                          JollyJ Offline
                                          JollyJ Offline
                                          Jolly
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #21

                                          @Renauda said in Millions for Ukraine:

                                          @Jolly

                                          I noticed it and agree with what you wrote.
                                          Short of setting up a no fly zone - which I contend remains impracticable and ill advised at this point - I believe the West has made a strategic error in not supplying aircraft. Have always thought the argument that supply of more sophisticated weaponry and air power would force the Russians to escalate was a straw man and cop out. Escalate what and how?

                                          On the other hand, it takes time to train even experienced pilots on aircraft like F-16 and what Ukraine will receive may well be too little, too late.

                                          NATO has already tried some of Ukraine's better pilots on the F-16. 90 days, and they're ready to fly missions. That's not the bulk of pilots. I suspect the average ones will take longer. The first F-16's will be coming from Denmark and the Netherlands, and should be operational in theater by the first of the year. More will follow.

                                          I don't think anything like air superiority will be achieved, especially since I don't think they'll be getting the latest F-16 radar mods, but if they get shoot and forget missiles, it gives them a big defensive boost in their own airspace.

                                          “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                          Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

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