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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
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  3. The Ukraine war thread

The Ukraine war thread

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  • M Offline
    M Offline
    Mik
    wrote on 17 Mar 2023, 20:11 last edited by
    #1514

    Putin was indicted before Trump! Who would have guessed that? It doesn't mean a whole lot, but it does put a little more pressure on him by further harming his international stature.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/international-arrest-warrant-issued-for-vladimir-putin-but-will-the-russian-president-be-taken-away-in-cuffs/ar-AA18LfJ8?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=af5a6f5c9c564939b840bf42de05bd53&ei=32

    “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

    1 Reply Last reply
    • M Offline
      M Offline
      Mik
      wrote on 18 Mar 2023, 17:05 last edited by
      #1515

      An offer he can't refuse

      https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-may-find-itself-receiving-an-offer-from-china-it-cannot-refuse/ar-AA18N2B9?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=062e341c21ec47eca9cfcaebb42f54fa&ei=27

      “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

      R 1 Reply Last reply 18 Mar 2023, 22:45
      • M Mik
        18 Mar 2023, 17:05

        An offer he can't refuse

        https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-may-find-itself-receiving-an-offer-from-china-it-cannot-refuse/ar-AA18N2B9?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=062e341c21ec47eca9cfcaebb42f54fa&ei=27

        R Offline
        R Offline
        Renauda
        wrote on 18 Mar 2023, 22:45 last edited by Renauda
        #1516

        @Mik

        Indeed it will be interesting to see what comes out of that summit next week, other than the usual overwrought theatre.

        Elbows up!

        1 Reply Last reply
        • G Offline
          G Offline
          George K
          wrote on 19 Mar 2023, 11:45 last edited by George K
          #1517

          "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

          The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

          1 Reply Last reply
          • G Offline
            G Offline
            George K
            wrote on 19 Mar 2023, 11:46 last edited by
            #1518

            "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

            The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

            R 1 Reply Last reply 19 Mar 2023, 14:20
            • G George K
              19 Mar 2023, 11:46

              R Offline
              R Offline
              Renauda
              wrote on 19 Mar 2023, 14:20 last edited by
              #1519

              @George-K

              Theatre of the perverse.

              Elbows up!

              1 Reply Last reply
              • J Offline
                J Offline
                jon-nyc
                wrote on 20 Mar 2023, 11:14 last edited by
                #1520

                Only non-witches get due process.

                • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                1 Reply Last reply
                • M Offline
                  M Offline
                  Mik
                  wrote on 20 Mar 2023, 12:26 last edited by
                  #1521

                  Could be behind the reports of him looking puffy.

                  “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • G Offline
                    G Offline
                    George K
                    wrote on 20 Mar 2023, 12:37 last edited by George K
                    #1522

                    It's been said that the configuration of one's ears as unique as a fingerprint. Look at #1 and #2. They are the same person, based on the shape of the ear. I can't tell about #3. But, are they Putin? I dunno.

                    ETA: AHA!

                    https://news.yahoo.com/putin-using-body-double-listen-035201450.html

                    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/putins-body-double-mystery-finally-29121981

                    "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                    The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • M Offline
                      M Offline
                      Mik
                      wrote on 20 Mar 2023, 15:30 last edited by
                      #1523

                      Bluster and fear is all he's got left.

                      https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-threatens-to-blow-up-icc-with-hypersonic-missile/ar-AA18QozP?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=eca961c8ad17487fa775fc6ced26b38c&ei=13

                      “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • R Offline
                        R Offline
                        Renauda
                        wrote on 22 Mar 2023, 01:21 last edited by
                        #1524

                        As expected it was a whole lot of nothing other than more trouble down the road:

                        https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/03/21/as-xi-visits-putin-allies-trumpet-new-era-but-offer-little-substance-a80559

                        Elbows up!

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • M Offline
                          M Offline
                          Mik
                          wrote on 22 Mar 2023, 02:09 last edited by
                          #1525

                          The only thing at all significant is the implication that if the parties don't come to a political settlement China will start providing lethal aid.

                          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                          R 1 Reply Last reply 22 Mar 2023, 02:12
                          • M Mik
                            22 Mar 2023, 02:09

                            The only thing at all significant is the implication that if the parties don't come to a political settlement China will start providing lethal aid.

                            R Offline
                            R Offline
                            Renauda
                            wrote on 22 Mar 2023, 02:12 last edited by
                            #1526

                            @Mik

                            Like I said, more trouble down the road.

                            There ain’t going to be a settlement.

                            Elbows up!

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • M Offline
                              M Offline
                              Mik
                              wrote on 22 Mar 2023, 02:13 last edited by Mik
                              #1527

                              Not while Russian troops are on Crimean soil.

                              Chinese weaponry might make things uglier, but Russia still doesn't have an army worth a tinker's damn.

                              “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                              C 1 Reply Last reply 22 Mar 2023, 14:42
                              • R Offline
                                R Offline
                                Renauda
                                wrote on 22 Mar 2023, 02:21 last edited by Renauda
                                #1528

                                @Mik

                                I fear you are right. Just over a year ago I think it may have been negotiable. The Russians have now made that not at all practicable.

                                Elbows up!

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • M Offline
                                  M Offline
                                  Mik
                                  wrote on 22 Mar 2023, 02:24 last edited by
                                  #1529

                                  Even if he can supply them, my impression is they don't want to fight. You cannot possibly win in that scenario, especially against a people fighting for their own land.

                                  “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • M Offline
                                    M Offline
                                    Mik
                                    wrote on 22 Mar 2023, 03:13 last edited by Mik
                                    #1530

                                    Wrong thread.

                                    “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • G Offline
                                      G Offline
                                      George K
                                      wrote on 22 Mar 2023, 12:10 last edited by
                                      #1531

                                      Do Russians Worship War?

                                      As Gregory Carleton observes in his superb 2017 study Russia: The Story of War, war is an indispensable part of how Russians see the world and their place in it. The extent to which World War II and all previous wars extending back a thousand years define Russian national identity is truly astonishing. Unless we grasp the Russian way of thinking, our policies are bound to be ineffective, if not counterproductive. While some of our responses to the attempted subjugation and submersion of Ukraine make sense, others may heighten the determination of Russians to continue fighting regardless of cost or sacrifice.

                                      Reminders of war are everywhere in Russia. Newlyweds ritually place flowers on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Moscow. I don’t know any American who can identify the day May 9, the anniversary of Nazi Germany’s surrender, but in Russia it is the most important holiday of the year, consecrated by the Russian Orthodox Church. The sun always shines in Moscow on May 9, a day of parades, because Russian aircraft disperse the clouds. People carry photographs of relatives who fought in the war and thereby join “the Eternal Regiment.” May 9 defines what Carleton calls Russia’s “civic religion,” which, even more than Russian Orthodox holidays, unites Russians of all social classes, believers and atheists alike. They sense their kinship with the mystical body of the people, past and present. By contrast, few Americans still commemorate December 7, save for an annual newspaper article in the local paper and maybe an item on the morning news.

                                      Wars figure in American history, of course, but they do not define what it is to be an American. (A partial exception may once have been the Civil War in the imagination of some Southerners.) The military in the United States may be respected, but it is not sacred, and criticism of it does not constitute blasphemy, as criticism of the Russian military often does. Of course, the United States has never been occupied by a foreign power.

                                      To appreciate the Russian perspective, we should consider some basic historical facts. Americans were profoundly shocked by our loss of more than 50,000 soldiers in the Vietnam War; in World War II, the toll was approximately 450,000. Now contrast that with historical memory in Russia. It is impossible to know the Soviet death toll from 1941 to 1945, but it was surely greater than 20 million—about 1 in 7 of all people, adults and children. Only 3 percent of Russian men born between 1923 and 1924 survived the war. Now go back a few more decades. During World War I, the revolutions of 1917, and the civil war that followed it, more than 10 million lost their lives, not just from violence but, even more so, from hunger. In 1812, Napoleon’s Grand Army, the largest in European history up to that point, reached Moscow, which burned to the ground. In 1898, Nikolai Sukhotin, director of the General Staff Academy (the Russian equivalent of West Point), calculated that Russia had spent 353 of the previous 525 years—two-thirds of its history as a nation—waging war.

                                      As Gregory Carleton observes in his superb 2017 study Russia: The Story of War, war is an indispensable part of how Russians see the world and their place in it. The extent to which World War II and all previous wars extending back a thousand years define Russian national identity is truly astonishing. Unless we grasp the Russian way of thinking, our policies are bound to be ineffective, if not counterproductive. While some of our responses to the attempted subjugation and submersion of Ukraine make sense, others may heighten the determination of Russians to continue fighting regardless of cost or sacrifice.


                                      Reminders of war are everywhere in Russia. Newlyweds ritually place flowers on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Moscow. I don’t know any American who can identify the day May 9, the anniversary of Nazi Germany’s surrender, but in Russia it is the most important holiday of the year, consecrated by the Russian Orthodox Church. The sun always shines in Moscow on May 9, a day of parades, because Russian aircraft disperse the clouds. People carry photographs of relatives who fought in the war and thereby join “the Eternal Regiment.” May 9 defines what Carleton calls Russia’s “civic religion,” which, even more than Russian Orthodox holidays, unites Russians of all social classes, believers and atheists alike. They sense their kinship with the mystical body of the people, past and present. By contrast, few Americans still commemorate December 7, save for an annual newspaper article in the local paper and maybe an item on the morning news.

                                      Wars figure in American history, of course, but they do not define what it is to be an American. (A partial exception may once have been the Civil War in the imagination of some Southerners.) The military in the United States may be respected, but it is not sacred, and criticism of it does not constitute blasphemy, as criticism of the Russian military often does. Of course, the United States has never been occupied by a foreign power.

                                      To appreciate the Russian perspective, we should consider some basic historical facts. Americans were profoundly shocked by our loss of more than 50,000 soldiers in the Vietnam War; in World War II, the toll was approximately 450,000. Now contrast that with historical memory in Russia. It is impossible to know the Soviet death toll from 1941 to 1945, but it was surely greater than 20 million—about 1 in 7 of all people, adults and children. Only 3 percent of Russian men born between 1923 and 1924 survived the war. Now go back a few more decades. During World War I, the revolutions of 1917, and the civil war that followed it, more than 10 million lost their lives, not just from violence but, even more so, from hunger. In 1812, Napoleon’s Grand Army, the largest in European history up to that point, reached Moscow, which burned to the ground. In 1898, Nikolai Sukhotin, director of the General Staff Academy (the Russian equivalent of West Point), calculated that Russia had spent 353 of the previous 525 years—two-thirds of its history as a nation—waging war.

                                      In the last part he goes into the "cancel culture" that we're seeing in the arts regarding Russian culture. It's a bit of meandering off his main point, but interesting.

                                      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                      R 1 Reply Last reply 22 Mar 2023, 16:03
                                      • M Mik
                                        22 Mar 2023, 02:13

                                        Not while Russian troops are on Crimean soil.

                                        Chinese weaponry might make things uglier, but Russia still doesn't have an army worth a tinker's damn.

                                        C Offline
                                        C Offline
                                        Copper
                                        wrote on 22 Mar 2023, 14:42 last edited by
                                        #1532

                                        @Mik said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                        Chinese weaponry might make things uglier

                                        Yes, but it will be good to get a look at them in action.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • G George K
                                          22 Mar 2023, 12:10

                                          Do Russians Worship War?

                                          As Gregory Carleton observes in his superb 2017 study Russia: The Story of War, war is an indispensable part of how Russians see the world and their place in it. The extent to which World War II and all previous wars extending back a thousand years define Russian national identity is truly astonishing. Unless we grasp the Russian way of thinking, our policies are bound to be ineffective, if not counterproductive. While some of our responses to the attempted subjugation and submersion of Ukraine make sense, others may heighten the determination of Russians to continue fighting regardless of cost or sacrifice.

                                          Reminders of war are everywhere in Russia. Newlyweds ritually place flowers on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Moscow. I don’t know any American who can identify the day May 9, the anniversary of Nazi Germany’s surrender, but in Russia it is the most important holiday of the year, consecrated by the Russian Orthodox Church. The sun always shines in Moscow on May 9, a day of parades, because Russian aircraft disperse the clouds. People carry photographs of relatives who fought in the war and thereby join “the Eternal Regiment.” May 9 defines what Carleton calls Russia’s “civic religion,” which, even more than Russian Orthodox holidays, unites Russians of all social classes, believers and atheists alike. They sense their kinship with the mystical body of the people, past and present. By contrast, few Americans still commemorate December 7, save for an annual newspaper article in the local paper and maybe an item on the morning news.

                                          Wars figure in American history, of course, but they do not define what it is to be an American. (A partial exception may once have been the Civil War in the imagination of some Southerners.) The military in the United States may be respected, but it is not sacred, and criticism of it does not constitute blasphemy, as criticism of the Russian military often does. Of course, the United States has never been occupied by a foreign power.

                                          To appreciate the Russian perspective, we should consider some basic historical facts. Americans were profoundly shocked by our loss of more than 50,000 soldiers in the Vietnam War; in World War II, the toll was approximately 450,000. Now contrast that with historical memory in Russia. It is impossible to know the Soviet death toll from 1941 to 1945, but it was surely greater than 20 million—about 1 in 7 of all people, adults and children. Only 3 percent of Russian men born between 1923 and 1924 survived the war. Now go back a few more decades. During World War I, the revolutions of 1917, and the civil war that followed it, more than 10 million lost their lives, not just from violence but, even more so, from hunger. In 1812, Napoleon’s Grand Army, the largest in European history up to that point, reached Moscow, which burned to the ground. In 1898, Nikolai Sukhotin, director of the General Staff Academy (the Russian equivalent of West Point), calculated that Russia had spent 353 of the previous 525 years—two-thirds of its history as a nation—waging war.

                                          As Gregory Carleton observes in his superb 2017 study Russia: The Story of War, war is an indispensable part of how Russians see the world and their place in it. The extent to which World War II and all previous wars extending back a thousand years define Russian national identity is truly astonishing. Unless we grasp the Russian way of thinking, our policies are bound to be ineffective, if not counterproductive. While some of our responses to the attempted subjugation and submersion of Ukraine make sense, others may heighten the determination of Russians to continue fighting regardless of cost or sacrifice.


                                          Reminders of war are everywhere in Russia. Newlyweds ritually place flowers on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Moscow. I don’t know any American who can identify the day May 9, the anniversary of Nazi Germany’s surrender, but in Russia it is the most important holiday of the year, consecrated by the Russian Orthodox Church. The sun always shines in Moscow on May 9, a day of parades, because Russian aircraft disperse the clouds. People carry photographs of relatives who fought in the war and thereby join “the Eternal Regiment.” May 9 defines what Carleton calls Russia’s “civic religion,” which, even more than Russian Orthodox holidays, unites Russians of all social classes, believers and atheists alike. They sense their kinship with the mystical body of the people, past and present. By contrast, few Americans still commemorate December 7, save for an annual newspaper article in the local paper and maybe an item on the morning news.

                                          Wars figure in American history, of course, but they do not define what it is to be an American. (A partial exception may once have been the Civil War in the imagination of some Southerners.) The military in the United States may be respected, but it is not sacred, and criticism of it does not constitute blasphemy, as criticism of the Russian military often does. Of course, the United States has never been occupied by a foreign power.

                                          To appreciate the Russian perspective, we should consider some basic historical facts. Americans were profoundly shocked by our loss of more than 50,000 soldiers in the Vietnam War; in World War II, the toll was approximately 450,000. Now contrast that with historical memory in Russia. It is impossible to know the Soviet death toll from 1941 to 1945, but it was surely greater than 20 million—about 1 in 7 of all people, adults and children. Only 3 percent of Russian men born between 1923 and 1924 survived the war. Now go back a few more decades. During World War I, the revolutions of 1917, and the civil war that followed it, more than 10 million lost their lives, not just from violence but, even more so, from hunger. In 1812, Napoleon’s Grand Army, the largest in European history up to that point, reached Moscow, which burned to the ground. In 1898, Nikolai Sukhotin, director of the General Staff Academy (the Russian equivalent of West Point), calculated that Russia had spent 353 of the previous 525 years—two-thirds of its history as a nation—waging war.

                                          In the last part he goes into the "cancel culture" that we're seeing in the arts regarding Russian culture. It's a bit of meandering off his main point, but interesting.

                                          R Offline
                                          R Offline
                                          Renauda
                                          wrote on 22 Mar 2023, 16:03 last edited by
                                          #1533

                                          @George-K

                                          Not much to dispute there. It accurately describes and breaks down the Russian siege mentality. I also agree that the West’s current cancelling of Russian culture is a dangerous folly. It only serves to reinforce the siege mentality inside Russia.

                                          Since this war started I have wondered how Shostakovich would have viewed the situation. I am certain he would appalled and thoroughly depressed.

                                          Elbows up!

                                          G 1 Reply Last reply 22 Mar 2023, 16:18
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