Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?

[Axtremus]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/04/15/kentucky-restaurant-ukraine-flag/

A Bardstown, Kentucky restaurant manager (who adopted a son from Ukraine) put up a Ukraine flag to show his support for Ukraine. Then he started getting an avalanche of hateful phone calls and messages accusing him of being "unpatriotic" (presumably for flying a foreign flag, albeit besides the American one) and demand that he takes the Ukrainian flag down.

Srsly, given current world events, would you object to someone flying Ukraine's flag to show support for Ukraine? Is it really that objectionable, do these people just hate Ukraine, or do the people who complain just do not read or hear the news?

[Aqua Letifer]

@Axtremus said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/04/15/kentucky-restaurant-ukraine-flag/

A Bardstown, Kentucky restaurant manager (who adopted a son from Ukraine) put up a Ukraine flag to show his support for Ukraine. Then he started getting an avalanche of hateful phone calls and messages accusing him of being "unpatriotic" (presumably for flying a foreign flag, albeit besides the American one) and demand that he takes the Ukrainian flag down.

Srsly, given current world events, would you object to someone flying Ukraine's flag to show support for Ukraine? Is it really that objectionable, do these people just hate Ukraine, or do the people who complain just do not read or hear the news?

I do. There's a guy in town here who has a blue and yellow flag with "I SUPPORT UKRAINE" written on it in his yard. I fully object to it because it's fucking ridiculous. Who doesn't support Ukraine? How is it even considered information to have a sign like that?

I'm going to get one that says, "I stand with Superman." Mind you, I'm not going to donate any time or money to support Superman because all that will be tied up with the sign, but I feel the sign is actually better than doing anything concrete because then I get perceived social street cred.

[Renauda]

Ukrainian flags have been very common all over here for years. Since the war started, they have become ubiquitous.

There is a very large and well established Ukrainian diaspora residing here. It has always been nationalist, vocal and, often militant.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

Who doesn't support Ukraine?

Presumably, the people in Kentucky who said that Ashlock was supporting Nazis, and how the war was not real.

Cretins, in other words.

[Aqua Letifer]

@Doctor-Phibes said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

Who doesn't support Ukraine?

Presumably, the people in Kentucky who said that Ashlock was supporting Nazis, and how the war was not real.

Cretins, in other words.

No shortage of them in the US, though, unfortunately.

[Horace]

I suspect there is some trolling going on in the original story, and that harassment for flying a Ukrainian flag in America would be difficult to reproduce.

[Renauda]

@Doctor-Phibes said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

Who doesn't support Ukraine?

Presumably, the people in Kentucky who said that Ashlock was supporting Nazis, and how the war was not real.

Cretins, in other words.

You’re kidding?

I can’t read the article as it is behind a paywall.

[Aqua Letifer]

@Horace said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

I suspect there is some trolling going on in the original story, and that harassment for flying a Ukrainian flag in America would be difficult to reproduce.

I think your highest chance of finding a similar sentiment would be to seek out communities with flags of AK-47s on top of the Stars & Bars.

That's not a dig, I'm being serious. That would be my best guess.

[Horace]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

@Horace said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

I suspect there is some trolling going on in the original story, and that harassment for flying a Ukrainian flag in America would be difficult to reproduce.

I think your highest chance of finding a similar sentiment would be to seek out communities with flags of AK-47s on top of the Stars & Bars.

That's not a dig, I'm being serious. That would be my best guess.

So we’re imagining geopolitically aware cretins with strong principled opinions on Eastern European conflicts.

[Mik]

You have a knack for posting exceptionally trivial events that shore up your bias.

[Horace]

@Mik said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

You have a knack for posting exceptionally trivial events that shore up your bias.

And that could just as easily refer to the Washington Post rather than Ax.

[Aqua Letifer]

@Horace said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

@Horace said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

I suspect there is some trolling going on in the original story, and that harassment for flying a Ukrainian flag in America would be difficult to reproduce.

I think your highest chance of finding a similar sentiment would be to seek out communities with flags of AK-47s on top of the Stars & Bars.

That's not a dig, I'm being serious. That would be my best guess.

So we’re imagining geopolitically aware cretins with strong principled opinions on Eastern European conflicts.

No, more like:

• Centrists support Ukraine
• Lefties support Ukraine
• Righties support Ukraine
• Fringe leftists support adding sunflowers and Ukrainian flags to their profile names, and "highlighting" Ukrainians who also fit their narratives regarding race and gender
• Fringe righties kinda looked up to Putin in the past, so...

This also isn't in context to any larger discussion. I'm literally guessing as to who these people might be, if any there are.

I live in a pretty freaking red area and no one's like that. But I think it's because they aren't radicals.

[Horace]

I suspect if there were any calls to the restaurant, they were from trolls who may have taken genuine if ridiculous exception to seeing a flag over the restaurant that wasn’t the American flag. Which is probably the only flag such trolls would be familiar with.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Renauda said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

@Doctor-Phibes said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

Who doesn't support Ukraine?

Presumably, the people in Kentucky who said that Ashlock was supporting Nazis, and how the war was not real.

Cretins, in other words.

You’re kidding?

I can’t read the article as it is behind a paywall.

I read a different article about it as I was also stuck by the paywall:

https://www.newsweek.com/restaurant-blasted-ukraine-flag-replacing-nonexistent-american-flag-1698014

No idea whether it's true or not. Most people here seems to think it's false, but some of the yanks do get awfully emotional about flags.

Funny story - somebody put up a small union jack in my office as a joke. Somebody else in all seriousness told me I really needed to put up an American flag next to it

[Jolly]

There is a section on the Right that thinks we have no business in foreign wars, unless it is something like a Pearl Harbor event. No business includes thumbing our nose at the Russian Bear or shedding American blood for Tawain. They'll refer to Washington's comments quite a bit.

I don't think it is a huge faction, but they are out there.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Jolly said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

There is a section on the Right that thinks we have no business in foreign wars, unless it is something like a Pearl Harbor event. No business includes thumbing our nose at the Russian Bear or shedding American blood for Tawain. They'll refer to Washington's comments quite a bit.

I don't think it is a huge faction, but they are out there.

I think there's also a section that seems to have admiration for Putin. I honestly don't get that at any level. Whether you're a hard-line conservative who hates government interference of any kind, or a leftie bleeding heart who believes that every gender is sacred, there's something to seriously dislike in Putin for everybody.

[Aqua Letifer]

@Doctor-Phibes said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

@Jolly said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

There is a section on the Right that thinks we have no business in foreign wars, unless it is something like a Pearl Harbor event. No business includes thumbing our nose at the Russian Bear or shedding American blood for Tawain. They'll refer to Washington's comments quite a bit.

I don't think it is a huge faction, but they are out there.

I think there's also a section that seems to have admiration for Putin. I honestly don't get that at any level. Whether you're a hard-line conservative who hates government interference of any kind, or a leftie bleeding heart who believes that every gender is sacred, there's something to seriously dislike in Putin for everybody.

It's exclusively people who, like Putin, primarily value force, but unlike Putin, don't have much in the way of it. So he's a bit of a role model.

[89th]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

I do. There's a guy in town here who has a blue and yellow flag with "I SUPPORT UKRAINE" written on it in his yard. I fully object to it because it's fucking ridiculous. Who doesn't support Ukraine? How is it even considered information to have a sign like that?

Yeah there's a house near ours that has the Ukraine sign. I'm like... we're in the middle of Minnesota. Who or what on earth do you think you're influencing with that sign, other than feeling like you're doing something about the war. I also chuckle at the "love is love..." sign, sometimes I wonder if they'd like a pamphlet about NAMBLA (not that I have any) or if it actually isn't that simple of an issue.

[Doctor Phibes]

@89th said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Nationalism, Ukraine Hate, or mere Ignorance?:

I do. There's a guy in town here who has a blue and yellow flag with "I SUPPORT UKRAINE" written on it in his yard. I fully object to it because it's fucking ridiculous. Who doesn't support Ukraine? How is it even considered information to have a sign like that?

Yeah there's a house near ours that has the Ukraine sign. I'm like... we're in the middle of Minnesota. Who or what on earth do you think you're influencing with that sign, other than feeling like you're doing something about the war. I also chuckle at the "love is love..." sign, sometimes I wonder if they'd like a pamphlet about NAMBLA (not that I have any) or if it actually isn't that simple of an issue.

You can say that about any sign. Pro-life, pro-choice, God is my co-driver, Darwin, NRA, Obama, Trump, Terrorist Hunting License, This Car Climbed Mount Washington, Baby on Board, any of them.

There's no bloody point to any of them, other than occasionally alerting people that the person in front of them in the McDonald's queue is possibly a bit of a knobhead.

[Renauda]

@Doctor-Phibes

I think there's also a section that seems to have admiration for Putin. I honestly don't get that at any level.

Support for Putin here exists but it is not at all noticeable unless you actually start looking for it.

Definitely there is support among adherents to Russian Orthodoxy but only to those who follow the Moscow Patriarchy or the Serbian Orthodox Church. Other Orthodox churches however openly condemn Putin and some have gone as far as declaring the Russian Patriarchy in a state of heresy over its support of the Kremlin.

Likewise there is mixed support among the post Soviet Russian diaspora. Certainly among the Russian Orthodox faithful who came here adults during the Yeltsin era but much less so among their Canadian born children. Indeed it would seem that Russians do not retain their nationalist identity as do Ukrainians from generation to generation.

There is also some level of support for Putin among non Slavs. A poll six weeks ago among the various political parties indicated that 13% of the right wing People’s Party of Canada support Putin. I personally do not think poll is accurately assessing the facts. I would suggest that 13% represents supporters who do not believe Canada should involve itself with the war or any offshore war far removed from Canada. I suspect PPC supporters are just isolationist in their outlook but nevertheless find Putin’s actions Ukraine wholly repugnant. Despite that the Party’s leader, Maxine Bernier and the overall party platform is not isolationist on the issue but more in alignment the Realist school of John Mearsheimer regarding relations with Russia. At the same time I do however agree with Aqua, that there is an element of support from that tiny minority of folks out there who just like to see power and force in politicians. Those holding that view, are of course attracted to Putin.

There is one group however that unequivocally does support Putin. These are all members of the far left. The same ones who see the Orange Revolution of 2004 and Maidan in 2013 as American backed coups. They are also convinced that Zelenskyi and his government are in the pay of the CIA. They support Putin simply because he is at war with the US, NATO and liberal democracy in general.