Travesty
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The Flynn Kislyak transcripts released: https://thefederalist.com/2020/05/29/declassified-flynn-transcripts-contradict-key-mueller-claims-against-flynn/
Tell me again about who lied:
Highly sought-after summaries and transcripts of intercepted phone calls between former White House National Security Adviser Michael Flynn and Russian ambassador Sergei Kislyak contradict key claims made by former Special Counsel Robert Mueller in his criminal case against Flynn. The transcripts were provided to Congress on Friday and obtained by The Federalist. You can read the full documents here and here...(links at the original).
Flynn was charged by Mueller in 2017 with making false statements to federal officials about conversations he had with Kislyak on December 22 and December 29, 2017. According to the charging documents from Mueller, Flynn allegedly falsely claimed to Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) agents that he did not ask Kislyak to “refrain from escalating” in response to U.S. expulsion of Russian diplomats and falsely claimed that he did not ask Kislyak to help defeat an anti-Israel resolution pending before the United Nations at the time. Mueller also claimed that Flynn lied when he said he didn’t remember Kislyak telling him that Russia would “moderate its response” to the expulsions.
The transcript of the December 29 conversation, which was cited by Mueller, does not include a request from Flynn that Russia “refrain from escalating” in response to U.S. expulsions of Russian diplomats. According to the transcript, Flynn asked Kislyak for Russia’s response to be “reciprocal” so that the U.S.–not Russia–would not be forced to escalate beyond the expulsions. The transcript makes clear that Flynn fully expected Russia to respond to the situation by expelling U.S. diplomats in response to the Obama administration’s move to expel nearly three dozen Russian diplomats from the U.S., and that his primary concern was preventing a situation where the U.S. would have to escalate tensions in response to Russia.
“Make it reciprocal,” Flynn reportedly said. “[D]on’t go any further than you have to. Because I don’t want us to get into something that has to escalate, on a, you know, on a tit for tat.”
“I really don’t want us to get into a situation where we’re going, you know, where we do this and then you do something bigger, and then you know, everybody’s got to go back and forth and everybody’s got to be the tough guy here, you know?” Flynn continued. “We need cool heads to prevail, and uh, we need to be very steady about what we’re going to do because we have absolutely a common uh, threat in the Middle East right now.”
“We agree,” Kislyak responded.
Later in the conversation, Flynn again used the word “escalate” in reference not to a potential Russian response, but to what he hoped the United States would not have to do in response to Russian actions.
“If you have to do something, do something on a reciprocal basis,” Flynn said. “And, and then, we know that we’re not going to escalate this thing[.]”
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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The federalist take just sounds like semantics:
The transcript of the December 29 conversation, which was cited by Mueller, does not include a request from Flynn that Russia “refrain from escalating” in response to U.S. expulsions of Russian diplomats. According to the transcript, Flynn asked Kislyak for Russia’s response to be “reciprocal” so that the U.S.–not Russia–would not be forced to escalate beyond the expulsions.
Here's what Flynn said:
“You might appreciate the sentiments that are raging in Moscow,” the ambassador, Sergey Kislyak, replied to Flynn’s request on the Dec, 29, 2016 call.
“I know, I - believe me, I do appreciate it, I very much appreciate it,” Flynn responded. “But I really don't want us to get into a situation where we're going, you know, where we do this and then you do something bigger, and then you know, everybody's got to go back and forth and everybody's got to be the tough guy here, you know?”
Sounds like Flynn saying "refrain from escalating"
Brings me back to a statement I made in a different thread:
Flynn lying about the same thing that got him fired as the NSA indicates a pretty low-integrity guy.
So - can it be the case that both of these statements are true:
The FBI lacked integrity in its pursuit of Flynn
Flynn lacked integrity in his conduct as incoming NSA
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The Flynn Kislyak transcripts released: https://thefederalist.com/2020/05/29/declassified-flynn-transcripts-contradict-key-mueller-claims-against-flynn/
Tell me again about who lied:
Highly sought-after summaries and transcripts of intercepted phone calls between former White House National Security Adviser Michael Flynn and Russian ambassador Sergei Kislyak contradict key claims made by former Special Counsel Robert Mueller in his criminal case against Flynn. The transcripts were provided to Congress on Friday and obtained by The Federalist. You can read the full documents here and here...(links at the original).
Flynn was charged by Mueller in 2017 with making false statements to federal officials about conversations he had with Kislyak on December 22 and December 29, 2017. According to the charging documents from Mueller, Flynn allegedly falsely claimed to Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) agents that he did not ask Kislyak to “refrain from escalating” in response to U.S. expulsion of Russian diplomats and falsely claimed that he did not ask Kislyak to help defeat an anti-Israel resolution pending before the United Nations at the time. Mueller also claimed that Flynn lied when he said he didn’t remember Kislyak telling him that Russia would “moderate its response” to the expulsions.
The transcript of the December 29 conversation, which was cited by Mueller, does not include a request from Flynn that Russia “refrain from escalating” in response to U.S. expulsions of Russian diplomats. According to the transcript, Flynn asked Kislyak for Russia’s response to be “reciprocal” so that the U.S.–not Russia–would not be forced to escalate beyond the expulsions. The transcript makes clear that Flynn fully expected Russia to respond to the situation by expelling U.S. diplomats in response to the Obama administration’s move to expel nearly three dozen Russian diplomats from the U.S., and that his primary concern was preventing a situation where the U.S. would have to escalate tensions in response to Russia.
“Make it reciprocal,” Flynn reportedly said. “[D]on’t go any further than you have to. Because I don’t want us to get into something that has to escalate, on a, you know, on a tit for tat.”
“I really don’t want us to get into a situation where we’re going, you know, where we do this and then you do something bigger, and then you know, everybody’s got to go back and forth and everybody’s got to be the tough guy here, you know?” Flynn continued. “We need cool heads to prevail, and uh, we need to be very steady about what we’re going to do because we have absolutely a common uh, threat in the Middle East right now.”
“We agree,” Kislyak responded.
Later in the conversation, Flynn again used the word “escalate” in reference not to a potential Russian response, but to what he hoped the United States would not have to do in response to Russian actions.
“If you have to do something, do something on a reciprocal basis,” Flynn said. “And, and then, we know that we’re not going to escalate this thing[.]”
The Flynn Kislyak transcripts released: https://thefederalist.com/2020/05/29/declassified-flynn-transcripts-contradict-key-mueller-claims-against-flynn/
Tell me again about who lied:
Highly sought-after summaries and transcripts of intercepted phone calls between former White House National Security Adviser Michael Flynn and Russian ambassador Sergei Kislyak contradict key claims made by former Special Counsel Robert Mueller in his criminal case against Flynn. The transcripts were provided to Congress on Friday and obtained by The Federalist. You can read the full documents here and here...(links at the original).
Flynn was charged by Mueller in 2017 with making false statements to federal officials about conversations he had with Kislyak on December 22 and December 29, 2017. According to the charging documents from Mueller, Flynn allegedly falsely claimed to Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) agents that he did not ask Kislyak to “refrain from escalating” in response to U.S. expulsion of Russian diplomats and falsely claimed that he did not ask Kislyak to help defeat an anti-Israel resolution pending before the United Nations at the time. Mueller also claimed that Flynn lied when he said he didn’t remember Kislyak telling him that Russia would “moderate its response” to the expulsions.
The transcript of the December 29 conversation, which was cited by Mueller, does not include a request from Flynn that Russia “refrain from escalating” in response to U.S. expulsions of Russian diplomats. According to the transcript, Flynn asked Kislyak for Russia’s response to be “reciprocal” so that the U.S.–not Russia–would not be forced to escalate beyond the expulsions. The transcript makes clear that Flynn fully expected Russia to respond to the situation by expelling U.S. diplomats in response to the Obama administration’s move to expel nearly three dozen Russian diplomats from the U.S., and that his primary concern was preventing a situation where the U.S. would have to escalate tensions in response to Russia.
“Make it reciprocal,” Flynn reportedly said. “[D]on’t go any further than you have to. Because I don’t want us to get into something that has to escalate, on a, you know, on a tit for tat.”
“I really don’t want us to get into a situation where we’re going, you know, where we do this and then you do something bigger, and then you know, everybody’s got to go back and forth and everybody’s got to be the tough guy here, you know?” Flynn continued. “We need cool heads to prevail, and uh, we need to be very steady about what we’re going to do because we have absolutely a common uh, threat in the Middle East right now.”
“We agree,” Kislyak responded.
Later in the conversation, Flynn again used the word “escalate” in reference not to a potential Russian response, but to what he hoped the United States would not have to do in response to Russian actions.
“If you have to do something, do something on a reciprocal basis,” Flynn said. “And, and then, we know that we’re not going to escalate this thing[.]”
How dare we not escalate into a tit for tat with a nuclear power and instead argue for cooler heads to prevail.
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The Flynn Kislyak transcripts released: https://thefederalist.com/2020/05/29/declassified-flynn-transcripts-contradict-key-mueller-claims-against-flynn/
Tell me again about who lied:
Highly sought-after summaries and transcripts of intercepted phone calls between former White House National Security Adviser Michael Flynn and Russian ambassador Sergei Kislyak contradict key claims made by former Special Counsel Robert Mueller in his criminal case against Flynn. The transcripts were provided to Congress on Friday and obtained by The Federalist. You can read the full documents here and here...(links at the original).
Flynn was charged by Mueller in 2017 with making false statements to federal officials about conversations he had with Kislyak on December 22 and December 29, 2017. According to the charging documents from Mueller, Flynn allegedly falsely claimed to Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) agents that he did not ask Kislyak to “refrain from escalating” in response to U.S. expulsion of Russian diplomats and falsely claimed that he did not ask Kislyak to help defeat an anti-Israel resolution pending before the United Nations at the time. Mueller also claimed that Flynn lied when he said he didn’t remember Kislyak telling him that Russia would “moderate its response” to the expulsions.
The transcript of the December 29 conversation, which was cited by Mueller, does not include a request from Flynn that Russia “refrain from escalating” in response to U.S. expulsions of Russian diplomats. According to the transcript, Flynn asked Kislyak for Russia’s response to be “reciprocal” so that the U.S.–not Russia–would not be forced to escalate beyond the expulsions. The transcript makes clear that Flynn fully expected Russia to respond to the situation by expelling U.S. diplomats in response to the Obama administration’s move to expel nearly three dozen Russian diplomats from the U.S., and that his primary concern was preventing a situation where the U.S. would have to escalate tensions in response to Russia.
“Make it reciprocal,” Flynn reportedly said. “[D]on’t go any further than you have to. Because I don’t want us to get into something that has to escalate, on a, you know, on a tit for tat.”
“I really don’t want us to get into a situation where we’re going, you know, where we do this and then you do something bigger, and then you know, everybody’s got to go back and forth and everybody’s got to be the tough guy here, you know?” Flynn continued. “We need cool heads to prevail, and uh, we need to be very steady about what we’re going to do because we have absolutely a common uh, threat in the Middle East right now.”
“We agree,” Kislyak responded.
Later in the conversation, Flynn again used the word “escalate” in reference not to a potential Russian response, but to what he hoped the United States would not have to do in response to Russian actions.
“If you have to do something, do something on a reciprocal basis,” Flynn said. “And, and then, we know that we’re not going to escalate this thing[.]”
How dare we not escalate into a tit for tat with a nuclear power and instead argue for cooler heads to prevail.
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@Jolly that’s not even the point at all. And even if it was, remember - the Trump administration thought it was inappropriate and fired Flynn for it.
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@George-K well, then he’s clearly a low integrity guy. Which is the actual assertion I’m making.
Pence was saying that his transition team wasn’t doing what Flynn was accused (?) of. And he didn’t seem to think it would be right for Flynn to have those talks during transition.
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@George-K well, then he’s clearly a low integrity guy. Which is the actual assertion I’m making.
Pence was saying that his transition team wasn’t doing what Flynn was accused (?) of. And he didn’t seem to think it would be right for Flynn to have those talks during transition.
@George-K well, then he’s clearly a low integrity guy. Which is the actual assertion I’m making.
No. Again.
You asserted that he was fired because of inappropriate communications.
He resigned because he admitted to lying to VPOTUS.
Show me where he was fired because of what you claim were "inappropriate communications." You're moving goalposts.
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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POTUS quote:
“He didn't tell the vice president of the United States the facts and then he didn't remember, and that's just not acceptable.”"I fired him because of what he said to Mike Pence."
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POTUS quote:
“He didn't tell the vice president of the United States the facts and then he didn't remember, and that's just not acceptable.”"I fired him because of what he said to Mike Pence."
POTUS quote:
“He didn't tell the vice president of the United States the facts and then he didn't remember, and that's just not acceptable.”"I fired him because of what he said to Mike Pence."
Actually, Trump asked Flynn to resign and Flynn submitted his resignation. Flynn was not actually fired.
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POTUS quote:
“He didn't tell the vice president of the United States the facts and then he didn't remember, and that's just not acceptable.”"I fired him because of what he said to Mike Pence."
Actually, Trump asked Flynn to resign and Flynn submitted his resignation. Flynn was not actually fired.
POTUS quote:
“He didn't tell the vice president of the United States the facts and then he didn't remember, and that's just not acceptable.”"I fired him because of what he said to Mike Pence."
Actually, Trump asked Flynn to resign and Flynn submitted his resignation. Flynn was not actually fired.
Ah, “asked to resign” is not “fired.” Bill Clinton would be proud of you.
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POTUS quote:
“He didn't tell the vice president of the United States the facts and then he didn't remember, and that's just not acceptable.”"I fired him because of what he said to Mike Pence."
Actually, Trump asked Flynn to resign and Flynn submitted his resignation. Flynn was not actually fired.
Ah, “asked to resign” is not “fired.” Bill Clinton would be proud of you.
POTUS quote:
“He didn't tell the vice president of the United States the facts and then he didn't remember, and that's just not acceptable.”"I fired him because of what he said to Mike Pence."
Actually, Trump asked Flynn to resign and Flynn submitted his resignation. Flynn was not actually fired.
Ah, “asked to resign” is not “fired.” Bill Clinton would be proud of you.
Hey, if Xenon can parse every word, why not?
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POTUS quote:
“He didn't tell the vice president of the United States the facts and then he didn't remember, and that's just not acceptable.”"I fired him because of what he said to Mike Pence."
Actually, Trump asked Flynn to resign and Flynn submitted his resignation. Flynn was not actually fired.
Ah, “asked to resign” is not “fired.” Bill Clinton would be proud of you.
Hey, if Xenon can parse every word, why not?
POTUS quote:
“He didn't tell the vice president of the United States the facts and then he didn't remember, and that's just not acceptable.”"I fired him because of what he said to Mike Pence."
Actually, Trump asked Flynn to resign and Flynn submitted his resignation. Flynn was not actually fired.
Ah, “asked to resign” is not “fired.” Bill Clinton would be proud of you.
Hey, if Xenon can parse every word, why not?
I did not say you cannot parse every word, I said only that Bill Clinton would be proud of you the way you parsed those words.
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@George-K well, then he’s clearly a low integrity guy. Which is the actual assertion I’m making.
No. Again.
You asserted that he was fired because of inappropriate communications.
He resigned because he admitted to lying to VPOTUS.
Show me where he was fired because of what you claim were "inappropriate communications." You're moving goalposts.
@George-K well, then he’s clearly a low integrity guy. Which is the actual assertion I’m making.
No. Again.
You asserted that he was fired because of inappropriate communications.
He resigned because he admitted to lying to VPOTUS.
Show me where he was fired because of what you claim were "inappropriate communications." You're moving goalposts.
@xenon said:
POTUS quote:
“He didn't tell the vice president of the United States the facts and then he didn't remember, and that's just not acceptable.”"I fired him because of what he said to Mike Pence."
Ah, so "lying" is "inappropriate communications."
Talk about parsing, LOL.
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@George-K well, then he’s clearly a low integrity guy. Which is the actual assertion I’m making.
No. Again.
You asserted that he was fired because of inappropriate communications.
He resigned because he admitted to lying to VPOTUS.
Show me where he was fired because of what you claim were "inappropriate communications." You're moving goalposts.
@xenon said:
POTUS quote:
“He didn't tell the vice president of the United States the facts and then he didn't remember, and that's just not acceptable.”"I fired him because of what he said to Mike Pence."
Ah, so "lying" is "inappropriate communications."
Talk about parsing, LOL.
@George-K there are a lot of arguments floating around here. So I’ll try to be clearer.
My main point has always been that Flynn is a liar and got fired for it. Got fired for low integrity.
As for the inappropriate part, I’ll admit I don’t know what the norm is here. I hear partisans arguing both sides. I can understand the notion of reaching out to your soon-to-be counterparts to get a running start, and I can also understand the part of not affecting policy (e.g. don’t escalate) until you are actually the administration in place. (From the Obama admin’s perspective, isn’t Flynn subverting their foreign policy?)
I don’t know anything about the legalities there.
Now - the reason why I say that the administration likely thought it was inappropriate is because they fired Flynn for his omission here. If it was a trivial or routine thing he misrepresented, then it’s easy to say - “we got our wires crossed” “Flynn, actually did a great job there, he should have told me about it more clearly” etc. etc.
But - yes, that is me interpreting. And in my mind that’s a secondary point. As I said to Jolly earlier in the thread “that’s not the point. But if it were...”
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I don’t know anything about FARA violations.
In terms of him not lying to the FBI, is this what you’re talking about:
If I’m reading that correctly - the trained FBI agents didn’t see physical evidence of deception from Flynn, but they knew that his statements were inconsistent with the call.
So either he’s really forgetful, or a good liar.
Is there something more you’re referring to?
"Director Comey testified to the committee that 'the agents…discerned no physical indications of deception. They didn't see any change in posture, in tone, in inflection, in eye contact. They saw nothing that indicated to them that he knew he was lying to them,'" the report says, quoting Comey.
McCabe, the report continues, "confirmed the interviewing agent's initial impression and stated that the 'conundrum that we faced on their return from the interview is that although [the agents] didn't detect deception in the statements that he made in the interview … the statements were inconsistent with our understanding of the conversation that he had actually had with the ambassador.'""
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What, specifically, did he allegedly lie about, according to McCabe and Comey? What was the lie?
False Statements Regarding FLYNN’s Request to the Russian Ambassador that Russia Refrain from Escalating the Situation in Response to U.S. Sanctions against Russia
- On or about January 24, 2017, FLYNN agreed to be interviewed by agents from the FBI (“January 24 voluntary interview”). During the interview, FLYNN falsely stated that he did not ask Russia’s Ambassador to the United States (“Russian Ambassador”) to refrain from escalating the situation in response to sanctions that the United States had imposed against Russia. FLYNN also falsely stated that he did not remember a follow-up conversation in which the Russian Ambassador stated that Russia had chosen to moderate its response to those sanctions as a result of FLYNN’s request..
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4319576-Flynn-Statement-of-Offense.html#text/p1
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False Statements Regarding FLYNN’s Request to the Russian Ambassador that Russia Refrain from Escalating the Situation in Response to U.S. Sanctions against Russia
- On or about January 24, 2017, FLYNN agreed to be interviewed by agents from the FBI (“January 24 voluntary interview”). During the interview, FLYNN falsely stated that he did not ask Russia’s Ambassador to the United States (“Russian Ambassador”) to refrain from escalating the situation in response to sanctions that the United States had imposed against Russia. FLYNN also falsely stated that he did not remember a follow-up conversation in which the Russian Ambassador stated that Russia had chosen to moderate its response to those sanctions as a result of FLYNN’s request..
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4319576-Flynn-Statement-of-Offense.html#text/p1
False Statements Regarding FLYNN’s Request to the Russian Ambassador that Russia Refrain from Escalating the Situation in Response to U.S. Sanctions against Russia
- On or about January 24, 2017, FLYNN agreed to be interviewed by agents from the FBI (“January 24 voluntary interview”). During the interview, FLYNN falsely stated that he did not ask Russia’s Ambassador to the United States (“Russian Ambassador”) to refrain from escalating the situation in response to sanctions that the United States had imposed against Russia. FLYNN also falsely stated that he did not remember a follow-up conversation in which the Russian Ambassador stated that Russia had chosen to moderate its response to those sanctions as a result of FLYNN’s request..
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4319576-Flynn-Statement-of-Offense.html#text/p1
IOW, he simply may not have remembered. Apparently, you've never had to answer questions with an attorney present, give depositions or testify in court.
Flynn should have never consented to an interview without White House counsel present.
