Who killed Ashli Babbitt?
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@jolly said in Who killed Ashli Babbitt?:
Ah, the Truth trots out.
It's only MAGATs that need killing, is it? Maybe that's just politics or just plain Trump hate, I dunno. Me, I'm biased and I admit it...The January riot was not a planned event. That's been proven by investigation. It was spontaneous.
And in comparison to the Antifa, which stack bricks beforehand, the Trump supporters are not trying to tear down the country or the Constitution. Far, far from it.
They believe in fair elections. They believe in vote integrity. They also believe that the 2020 election was probably stolen. I've got a gut feeling they're probably right in their beliefs.
And let me make a firm statement...If the majority of people listening to Trump that day had decided to hang every Democrat in the Congress, there wouldn't have been a damn thing anybody could have done about it. It would have been like a Chinese human wave attack in Korea or the Red Army rolling over the Wehrmacht on the Russian steppes.
But they didn't. Most assembled peaceably, protested and left the same way.
So no, I don't think the foundations of the Republic were shaken by a goofy dude with shaman's horns parading around in his underwear with an American flag or some idiot with his feet up on Pelosi's desk.
To be honest, I hope it scared the Hell out of them, because I'd like for them to remember they are not part of the ruling class, but serve at the pleasure of the people. Even doofusses taking selfies.
Ok so I learned something. Jolly says the spontaneous nature of Jan 6 is a variable. It’s worth exploring as it does differentiate an insurrection.
@loki said in Who killed Ashli Babbitt?:
@jolly said in Who killed Ashli Babbitt?:
Ah, the Truth trots out.
It's only MAGATs that need killing, is it? Maybe that's just politics or just plain Trump hate, I dunno. Me, I'm biased and I admit it...The January riot was not a planned event. That's been proven by investigation. It was spontaneous.
And in comparison to the Antifa, which stack bricks beforehand, the Trump supporters are not trying to tear down the country or the Constitution. Far, far from it.
They believe in fair elections. They believe in vote integrity. They also believe that the 2020 election was probably stolen. I've got a gut feeling they're probably right in their beliefs.
And let me make a firm statement...If the majority of people listening to Trump that day had decided to hang every Democrat in the Congress, there wouldn't have been a damn thing anybody could have done about it. It would have been like a Chinese human wave attack in Korea or the Red Army rolling over the Wehrmacht on the Russian steppes.
But they didn't. Most assembled peaceably, protested and left the same way.
So no, I don't think the foundations of the Republic were shaken by a goofy dude with shaman's horns parading around in his underwear with an American flag or some idiot with his feet up on Pelosi's desk.
To be honest, I hope it scared the Hell out of them, because I'd like for them to remember they are not part of the ruling class, but serve at the pleasure of the people. Even doofusses taking selfies.
Ok so I learned something. Jolly says the spontaneous nature of Jan 6 is a variable. It’s worth exploring as it does differentiate an insurrection.
You want to know what an insurrection looks like?
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@jon-nyc said in Who killed Ashli Babbitt?:
89 - what do you think would have happened had a similar situation presented itself at the White House?
People would've been shot on the lawn. It would've been a massacre. Not that it's needed, but I've had enough white house special access tours to know this.
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@jon-nyc said in Who killed Ashli Babbitt?:
89 - what do you think would have happened had a similar situation presented itself at the White House?
People would've been shot on the lawn. It would've been a massacre. Not that it's needed, but I've had enough white house special access tours to know this.
@89th said in Who killed Ashli Babbitt?:
@jon-nyc said in Who killed Ashli Babbitt?:
89 - what do you think would have happened had a similar situation presented itself at the White House?
People would've been shot on the lawn. It would've been a massacre. Not that it's needed, but I've had enough white house special access tours to know this.
This conversation is silly, since that mob, equally motivated and frenzied as they were but with a target change to the White House, would not necessarily or even likely have breached the gate. If one had and charged, they’d have been shot. It’s goofy to imagine that mob getting mowed down during some saving private Ryan style charge of a fortified position. I’m not even sure why imaging that nonsensical scenario makes TDS sufferers feel better.
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Ah, the Truth trots out.
It's only MAGATs that need killing, is it? Maybe that's just politics or just plain Trump hate, I dunno. Me, I'm biased and I admit it...The January riot was not a planned event. That's been proven by investigation. It was spontaneous.
And in comparison to the Antifa, which stack bricks beforehand, the Trump supporters are not trying to tear down the country or the Constitution. Far, far from it.
They believe in fair elections. They believe in vote integrity. They also believe that the 2020 election was probably stolen. I've got a gut feeling they're probably right in their beliefs.
And let me make a firm statement...If the majority of people listening to Trump that day had decided to hang every Democrat in the Congress, there wouldn't have been a damn thing anybody could have done about it. It would have been like a Chinese human wave attack in Korea or the Red Army rolling over the Wehrmacht on the Russian steppes.
But they didn't. Most assembled peaceably, protested and left the same way.
So no, I don't think the foundations of the Republic were shaken by a goofy dude with shaman's horns parading around in his underwear with an American flag or some idiot with his feet up on Pelosi's desk.
To be honest, I hope it scared the Hell out of them, because I'd like for them to remember they are not part of the ruling class, but serve at the pleasure of the people. Even doofusses taking selfies.
@jolly said in Who killed Ashli Babbitt?:
Ah, the Truth trots out.
It's only MAGATs that need killing, is it? Maybe that's just politics or just plain Trump hate, I dunno. Me, I'm biased and I admit it...The January riot was not a planned event. That's been proven by investigation. It was spontaneous.
And in comparison to the Antifa, which stack bricks beforehand, the Trump supporters are not trying to tear down the country or the Constitution. Far, far from it.
They believe in fair elections. They believe in vote integrity. They also believe that the 2020 election was probably stolen. I've got a gut feeling they're probably right in their beliefs.
And let me make a firm statement...If the majority of people listening to Trump that day had decided to hang every Democrat in the Congress, there wouldn't have been a damn thing anybody could have done about it. It would have been like a Chinese human wave attack in Korea or the Red Army rolling over the Wehrmacht on the Russian steppes.
But they didn't. Most assembled peaceably, protested and left the same way.
So no, I don't think the foundations of the Republic were shaken by a goofy dude with shaman's horns parading around in his underwear with an American flag or some idiot with his feet up on Pelosi's desk.
To be honest, I hope it scared the Hell out of them, because I'd like for them to remember they are not part of the ruling class, but serve at the pleasure of the people. Even doofusses taking selfies.
It might surprise you but overall I agree. Although to be clear I don't agree that the election was stolen, not even close, and I don't accept the Trump supporters were upholding the Constitution... quite the opposite by not accepting the election results or peaceful transfer of power. I guess those two disagreements are connected.
That being said... January 6th was almost entirely a spontaneous/mob-mentality event. I could very much see how the rally attendees were spun up, marched to Congress to feel like they were doing something and, when they were able to overrun the police force so easily, I'd bet at LEAST 90% of those who breached the Capitol were just following the crowd in as part of their "patriotic" protest against what they thought was stolen... with no ill intent other than showing up in person and in voice.
Your point about the event scaring Congress to remember who they represent is also a good point, all other facts/aspects notwithstanding.
Still...I've said before how my position would be the same if the political parties were reversed. If a group of Antifa or liberals or whatever stormed the capitol to try and prevent Trump from winning a 2nd term just because they felt their candidate was cheated... I'm sure most on the right would've supported lethal force in preventing that. Imagine if Obama lost in 2012 and refused to accept his lost and all of the events related to it, my position would be the same.... would yours?
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Trump has never accepted that he lost the election, but nowhere in his speech January 6th did he advocate violence at the Capitol. Protest? Fershure! I think he would have been tickled if the whole crowd had marched down and screamed their lungs out, intimidating whomever they could.
But part of the crowd turned ugly. Antifa is known for violence, Trump supporters were not. I think that's why many of the Capitol police were caught flat-footed. And for all the political silliness emanating from her office, I also think that's why Pelosi had not taken steps to beef up security.
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Trump has never accepted that he lost the election, but nowhere in his speech January 6th did he advocate violence at the Capitol. Protest? Fershure! I think he would have been tickled if the whole crowd had marched down and screamed their lungs out, intimidating whomever they could.
But part of the crowd turned ugly. Antifa is known for violence, Trump supporters were not. I think that's why many of the Capitol police were caught flat-footed. And for all the political silliness emanating from her office, I also think that's why Pelosi had not taken steps to beef up security.
@jolly said in Who killed Ashli Babbitt?:
But part of the crowd turned ugly. Antifa is known for violence, Trump supporters were not. I think that's why many of the Capitol police were caught flat-footed. And for all the political silliness emanating from her office, I also think that's why Pelosi had not taken steps to beef up security.
I definitely agree with that perspective.
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I don't know. If Justice can only come up with a few felony convictions to go along with several misdemeanors, this whole thing may run out of political steam.
Pelosi has 6% inflation to worry about, a car crunch nightmare, an economy that's starting to look a bit shaky and this little problem in Afghanistan. On top of that, the Resident is looking more senile every day and even some Dems are starting to notice. The MSM can only cover up so much for so long.
I think they'll do their best to make January 6 stick, but I suspect most of the country doesn't give a damn...
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I think the whitehouse worked better when you could just walk in off the street and talk to Mr. Lincoln.
That is about the level of importance and seclusion the president should have.
@copper said in Who killed Ashli Babbitt?:
I think the whitehouse worked better when you could just walk in off the street and talk to Mr. Lincoln.
The theater, too.
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Article on the Capitol police officer’s interview with NBC.
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@george-k said in Who killed Ashli Babbitt?:
Legal experts and the media have avoided the obvious implications of the two reviews in the Babbitt shooting.
Under this standard, hundreds of rioters could have been gunned down on Jan. 6 — and officers in cities such as Seattle or Portland, Ore., could have killed hundreds of violent protesters who tried to burn courthouses, took over city halls or occupied police stations during last summer’s widespread rioting.
Yes, exactly
By that standard he should have killed them all.
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One thing that I wasn't aware of was that there were Capitol Police behind the mob that broke through the window.
Did this officer not consider that he might have hit one of his colleagues, or would that be "collateral damage?"
I keep asking, what is the policy for use of deadly force by the Capitol Police? No one seems to have an answer.
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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One thing that I wasn't aware of was that there were Capitol Police behind the mob that broke through the window.
Did this officer not consider that he might have hit one of his colleagues, or would that be "collateral damage?"
I keep asking, what is the policy for use of deadly force by the Capitol Police? No one seems to have an answer.
@george-k said in Who killed Ashli Babbitt?:
policy for use of deadly force
Policy as interpreted by the shooter:
But their failure to comply required me to take the appropriate action to save the lives of members of Congress and myself and my fellow officers."
None of those died
Policy successful
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One thing that I wasn't aware of was that there were Capitol Police behind the mob that broke through the window.
Did this officer not consider that he might have hit one of his colleagues, or would that be "collateral damage?"
I keep asking, what is the policy for use of deadly force by the Capitol Police? No one seems to have an answer.
@george-k said in Who killed Ashli Babbitt?:
One thing that I wasn't aware of was that there were Capitol Police behind the mob that broke through the window.
Did this officer not consider that he might have hit one of his colleagues, or would that be "collateral damage?"
I keep asking, what is the policy for use of deadly force by the Capitol Police? No one seems to have an answer.
I brought that up from the very first. A pass-through is highly possible at that range.
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One thing that I wasn't aware of was that there were Capitol Police behind the mob that broke through the window.
Did this officer not consider that he might have hit one of his colleagues, or would that be "collateral damage?"
I keep asking, what is the policy for use of deadly force by the Capitol Police? No one seems to have an answer.
@george-k said in Who killed Ashli Babbitt?:
I keep asking, what is the policy for use of deadly force by the Capitol Police? No one seems to have an answer.
“An officer may use deadly force only when the officer reasonably believes that action is in the defense of human life, including the officer's own life, or in the defense of any person in immediate danger of serious physical injury.”
