Meanwhile, on Long Island...
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@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
Yep.
A dead person never killed anybody.
On the other hand, it kind of increases the murder rate by definition.
Execution ain't murder.
What would you call the killing of an innocent human being? A price worth paying to achieve some undefined and unspecified benefit?
Justice. Sadly, it's imperfect, because man is imperfect. There will always be somebody wrongly convicted. Or wrongly executed.
We do the best we can on this mortal coil and let God take care of the soul.
It's not justice, thought. It's a grave injustice.
An Englishman once said that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer, a sentiment that was repeated by your Mr. Franklin.
At least with wrongful imprisonment, the wrong has a chance of being righted.
Only if you look at it as nothing past the grave. Man has imperfect justice, but God's Justice is perfect. He shall know his own, and any errors in this world will be corrected in the next.
So maybe only execute religious people?
If I was going to be executed for a crime I hadn't committed, I would find the idea that it was all OK because of somebody else's religious beliefs to be extremely tiresome.
I suspect most people before execution become quite religious.
Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion. -
@renauda said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Oh look a crack in the judicial system! Get out the bucket of God spackle and fill it with merciful theodicy. That'll surely make it good and bring comfort to all.
To me the invocation of divine justice just seems like a cop out or lame excuse not to make the judicial system less imperfect than it already is.
That opinion and $1 (American) will buy you a senior coffee at McDonald's.
Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion. -
Lastly...If I gave y'all $70 every day, to spend on anything you wished for any poor family you deemed deserving, what would you buy them?
Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion. -
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
Yep.
A dead person never killed anybody.
On the other hand, it kind of increases the murder rate by definition.
Execution ain't murder.
What would you call the killing of an innocent human being? A price worth paying to achieve some undefined and unspecified benefit?
Justice. Sadly, it's imperfect, because man is imperfect. There will always be somebody wrongly convicted. Or wrongly executed.
We do the best we can on this mortal coil and let God take care of the soul.
It's not justice, thought. It's a grave injustice.
An Englishman once said that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer, a sentiment that was repeated by your Mr. Franklin.
At least with wrongful imprisonment, the wrong has a chance of being righted.
Only if you look at it as nothing past the grave. Man has imperfect justice, but God's Justice is perfect. He shall know his own, and any errors in this world will be corrected in the next.
So maybe only execute religious people?
If I was going to be executed for a crime I hadn't committed, I would find the idea that it was all OK because of somebody else's religious beliefs to be extremely tiresome.
I suspect most people before execution become quite religious.
Using Jesus as an excuse for killing innocent people mostly died out in the middle ages.
I was only joking
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@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Using Jesus as an excuse for killing innocent people mostly died out in the middle ages.
The argument that Jesus would emphatically endorse killing innocent people is hilariously dense. You can't reach the bottom of stupid that runs that deep.
Please love yourself.
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@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Using Jesus as an excuse for killing innocent people mostly died out in the middle ages.
The argument that Jesus would emphatically endorse killing innocent people is hilariously dense. You can't reach the bottom of stupid that runs that deep.
No, but Jesus had no problem executing guilty people. And he'll have no problem throwing folks into the depths of Hell after the White Throne Judgement, will he?
If you'd like to argue either of those points, back your point up with scripture.
Now, back to your original, silly statement. Jesus does have a problem with executing innocent people, but Jesus doesn't sit as the judge in the courtroom (not that I've seen or heard about) and Jesus doesn't sit in the jury box.
Men do.
Imperfect men, trying to create as much order out of chaos as they can, equitably and fairly. Does the system always work? No. Man is not a perfect being, so perfection is an unobtainable standard. But that does not mean we throw our hands up, don our antifa shirts and descend into anarchy? No, it does not.
We do the best we can, given all the politics, quirks and foibles of mankind. Guess what? In a good system, man gets it right most of the time. According to you, in capital cases, man is 96% right. I think we can tweek that, primarily through better legal representation, and probably get it to about 98%-99% right.
But you are still going to point to that one man out of a hundred. I'm going to point to the 99 who were rightly convicted. Those 99 person are costing me in excess of $2.5M/yr of incarceration.
I'd rather do two things:
- Ensure justice is meted out equitable and fairly.
- Use my $2.5M for something better than housing rapists, murderers and people who douse other people in acid.
Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion. -
A long time ago, there was someone on the old coffee room whose daughter was kidnapped, raped, and killed.
That was shocking, and as close as I ever got to knowing someone whose family member was the target of some despicable person.
I remember what happened, as told to us. I hope the guy got the death penalty, just based upon what he did.
When it's personal, even slightly personal as in the above, it all takes on a different meaning. It's not just arguing percentages. I hope the bastard fried. Him. THAT PERSON. Not the theoretical person being discussed that did nothing wrong, or at least, that is not brought up as part of the debate.
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@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
I'd rather do two things:
Sounds great to me. As I said from the beginning, I don't care who disagrees with me, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.
Please love yourself.
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@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
I'd rather do two things:
Sounds great to me. As I said from the beginning, I don't care who disagrees with me, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.
Ever been around cons much? I have. A lot of them. A good part of our patient population were convicts. And like I said, I was down on The Farm quite a bit in my second career.
I find many murderers to be pretty nice guys. Murder is a crime of passion, a lot of the time. Kinda like the old man I was sharing lunch with, a trustee called "Pops". I asked Pops what he was in for. Murder 2 was the answer. Caught a guy in bed with his wife, so he slapped the snot out of his wife and beat the other guy to death in his front yard.
That's why Pops didn't get the chair. And as I said, he was a pretty genial guy to hang out with.
But some of those guys?
Nasty people. We had one guy who used to come in for bloodwork a good bit...Tied his girlfriend to a kitchen table and skinned her out with a butcher knife. Weird dude. I would have had no problem pulling the switch on him at all. Or the guy who sodomized a preacher's wife in front of him, before cutting her throat and his buddy shot the preacher in the head. Those guys weren't worth $70 of my money per day. They weren't worth 70 cents.
Why let those guys live? Kill it, bury it and move on...
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@rainman said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
A long time ago, there was someone on the old coffee room whose daughter was kidnapped, raped, and killed.
I don't want to derail the thread, but I was on call the night this happened. I got a PM....
Something so horrific has happened to my family. I'm numb and in shock. Denise, my daughter in law was kidnapped this afternoon. I can't sleep. I have to share it with someone. Of course, my family know but as it's after midnight I won't call them until we hear something more or at least not until morning. I know I need my sleep. But, my god, I can't even close my eyes.
Mark's mother is here sleepng in the guest bedroom. Mark's out on the couch waiting for Nathan (who is absolutely devastated) and I'm here with Noah in the bedrrom. Adam's over the other grandparents.
Oh, George, please pray for us.
But, to return to the thread, when something like this comes close to you, it makes you rethink your position on capital punishment. Though I understand Aqua's point, there's something...vengeful that comes out when it's close to home.
Hernando Williams (c. 1955 – 25 March 1995) was a convicted murderer, executed by the State of Illinois.
On 29 March 1978, Williams, a young man, kidnapped Linda Goldstone from the Northwestern Medical Center parking lot in Chicago, Illinois. Goldstone, the wife of a physician and mother of a young boy, was on her way to teach a Lamaze class when Williams approached her, gun in hand. He told her it was a robbery. She gave him her money, but Williams made her partially disrobe and get into the front seat of his car. Williams held Goldstone captive for more than two days.
At the time of his kidnapping of Goldstone, Williams was out on bail for kidnapping and rape of another woman. He drove around with her in the trunk of his car for several days, even attending a court hearing in Maywood, Illinois with her in his trunk. At the hearing, the assistant state's attorney told the judge he was not ready for trial and Williams left the courtroom a relatively free man. When he returned to the court parking lot, he saw some people who appeared to be talking to the trunk of his car. He told those people to get away and left the scene with Goldstone still in the trunk. One of those who had talked to Goldstone while she was in the trunk at the Courthouse, reported the license plate number to the police. Police did not act on the tip.
Williams spent two nights in different motels with Goldstone and later admitted that he sexually assaulted her. At around 5:00 a.m. on 1 April 1978, Williams let Goldstone go, giving her $1.25 for bus fare and telling her to get on a bus and go home. Instead, she approached a home, knocked on the door, and asked for help. The door was opened by a Chicago firefighter. Goldstone told him that she needed help. The firefighter told her that he would call the police. Then he closed the door, leaving her outside.
Meanwhile, Williams had gotten nervous, doubting whether Goldstone would keep her promise and get on a bus. He circled back around the block and saw her speaking to a man inside a house. After the firefighter had closed the door, Williams got out of his car and called to Goldstone. He led her around to a back alley where he shot her twice and left her. Some hours later, Chicago Police found Williams at his parents' home, washing out the trunk of his car.
Linda Goldstone was my friend's wife. The night of his execution, I stayed up to be sure that he was dead.
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I don't think justice should be based on anger. It's perfectly natural to want somebody who has destroyed somebody we love, or care about, or just know, to suffer in turn. Of course it's different when it's somebody we know.
But that's not what the justice system should be. It's why we don't have friends and relatives making up the jury, and we don't have the head of the household as judge.
Nobody wants innocent people to die, and that is what will inevitably happen if you have the death penalty.
I was only joking
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@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
I don't think justice should be based on anger. It's perfectly natural to want somebody who has destroyed somebody we love, or care about, or just know, to suffer in turn. Of course it's different when it's somebody we know.
But that's not what the justice system should be. It's why we don't have friends and relatives making up the jury, and we don't have the head of the household as judge.
That's why I used the word "vengeful" in my comments.
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In the 1970's and 1980's in Britain there were a large number of people who wanted the death penalty for terrorists. The anger was palpable.
Based on what we've learned since about the Birmingham 6, and other miscarriages of justice associated with Northern Ireland, due to multiple reasons, a lot of innocent people would have died during that time.
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@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
In the 1970's and 1980's in Britain there were a large number of people who wanted the death penalty for terrorists. The anger was palpable.
Based on what we've learned since about the Birmingham 6, and other miscarriages of justice associated with Northern Ireland, due to multiple reasons, a lot of innocent people would have died during that time.
As somebody who has rolled out his fair share of cold morgue trays, let me say that very few people "deserve" to die.
But of those few, some really, really need to.
Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion. -
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@renauda said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Oh look a crack in the judicial system! Get out the bucket of God spackle and fill it with merciful theodicy. That'll surely make it good and bring comfort to all.
To me the invocation of divine justice just seems like a cop out or lame excuse not to make the judicial system less imperfect than it already is.
That opinion and $1 (American) will buy you a senior coffee at McDonald's.
Thanks for the offer but you can keep your $1 USD and give the coffee to some poor soul on the street corner.
‘a-blowe yow and be-kele yow wel, and comyth up all with your ease’ ~ attributed to Henry V
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@renauda said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@renauda said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Oh look a crack in the judicial system! Get out the bucket of God spackle and fill it with merciful theodicy. That'll surely make it good and bring comfort to all.
To me the invocation of divine justice just seems like a cop out or lame excuse not to make the judicial system less imperfect than it already is.
That opinion and $1 (American) will buy you a senior coffee at McDonald's.
Thanks for the offer but you can keep your $1 USD and give the coffee to some poor soul on the street corner.
Well, it is McDonald's coffee...
Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion. -
‘a-blowe yow and be-kele yow wel, and comyth up all with your ease’ ~ attributed to Henry V
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@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
In the 1970's and 1980's in Britain there were a large number of people who wanted the death penalty for terrorists. The anger was palpable.
Based on what we've learned since about the Birmingham 6, and other miscarriages of justice associated with Northern Ireland, due to multiple reasons, a lot of innocent people would have died during that time.
As somebody who has rolled out his fair share of cold morgue trays, let me say that very few people "deserve" to die.
But of those few, some really, really need to.
Yes, but the exceptions when at a personal level, IOW whataboutisms. . .
I tried hard to help a guy from Cuba. He was in South Tucson at a bar, got into a fight. In anger, he went out to get a knife from the glove box of his car, came back in and stabbed the guy, who died at the scene. William ran to his car, went home, and told me what happened (he was a next-door neighbor in our line of condos)
In William's perspective, he did not want to kill the guy at all, but wanted to uphold his honor in the face of other people that he knew at the bar. William was a very nice guy, but a mean drunk. He was let loose in this country with a "welcome, enjoy your freedom," and from that point on, he didn't have a clue what to do, where to go, nothing! Those stupid bastards that let people into this country and provide absolutely nothing to help them merge into society and culture.Since he went to his car to get the knife, it was determined to be "premeditated murder." He got a life sentence, no parole.
And to be uncomfortably frank, the guy he killed was part of the low-life underground that lives in every city, who have no interest at all in anything like upward mobility. Those that commit acts of violence agains anyone weaker, to steal their way through the day if necessary.
But William had to defend his honor. That's what you would do in Cuba. You would run, hide, and in time no cop would be looking for you. But, "welcome to the U.S.A.!" The millions of people like William were set up to fail. Let them in and then forget about them, and then look at the stats for who is in jail, and why.Premeditated murder. And when he talked to me the one time on the phone when he was in jail, he couldn't figure out when he would be getting out. Certainly, he would be getting out, like in Cuba. Just find out who/where to slip the money, or who you know in a government position of influence, and that's how it works. No, William, you don't understand. . .
And he didn't understand. The difference in culture is what he did not understand, so in part because of this, he went to jail with countless others, and enjoyed their "welcome to the U.S.A." short stay of freedom.
Thanks, Uncle Sam!! -
@renauda said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Then enjoy the rich flavour yourself.
Nah, it has a bit of a burnt taste. It's why I thought you might like it.
Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion.
