Meanwhile, on Long Island...
-
@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@mik said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
That's pretty much where I am. You can let someone out if proven innocent. You cannot resurrect them. But cases like the one in this thread give me pause.
Yeah, I get that. But allowing the death penalty necessarily means that you're not going to get it right all the time. Killing this attacker, assuming we get this one right, necessarily means killing innocents along the way under the same process. So you have to ask yourself if killing innocents is worth the opportunity to kill the scum of the earth.
For me it's not even close.
I used to be on The Farm at least once a month. Sometimes more.
You really, really don't want to spend a lifetime down there.
According to your stats, we're getting about 4% of death penalty cases wrong. And guessing that they may have bias, it may not be that high. In an imperfect systen, that's not as bad as it sounds.
If you'd like to focus on better funding for the Public Defender, I'm all for it. If you'd even like to tighten up death penalty laws, I'm more than willing to listen. But...There are people in this world that are inherently evil, are guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt and are a cancer that needs to be cut out of the body of humanity.
I'd gave no more problem popping them in the burr of the ear, than I would a slaughter hog in the pen. Of course, the Bible said to hang them, so I may be in error on methodology.
wrote on 23 Apr 2021, 00:56 last edited by@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
I used to be on The Farm at least once a month. Sometimes more.
You really, really don't want to spend a lifetime down there.
I already said my opinion doesn't come from a place of compassion for nihilistic psychopaths.
According to your stats, we're getting about 4% of death penalty cases wrong. And guessing that they may have bias, it may not be that high. In an imperfect systen, that's not as bad as it sounds.
It still boils down to the same problem: it's an imperfect death penalty system. For every X monsters you kill, you're necessarily going to be killing Y innocent people.
There are a number of ways to come to terms with that. You can criticize stats up to the point where you delude yourself into believing that absolutely everyone who was ever given lethal injection deserved it. Or you can delude yourself into thinking that everyone who was ever killed by the state was a bad person anyway, even if they didn't commit that particular crime. Both of these are horseshit, but people are allowed to believe what they want.
What would be a little intellectually honest would be to own up to the fact that you're killing innocent people in the process, and that that's just the cost of doing business. People are free to believe that, too. I also find it a completely horseshit position to take for anyone who claims to be anti-abortion for moral reasons, and not one I have to respect or even take seriously, but that's just me. I really don't care who disagrees with me. Most people do.
-
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
I used to be on The Farm at least once a month. Sometimes more.
You really, really don't want to spend a lifetime down there.
I already said my opinion doesn't come from a place of compassion for nihilistic psychopaths.
According to your stats, we're getting about 4% of death penalty cases wrong. And guessing that they may have bias, it may not be that high. In an imperfect systen, that's not as bad as it sounds.
It still boils down to the same problem: it's an imperfect death penalty system. For every X monsters you kill, you're necessarily going to be killing Y innocent people.
There are a number of ways to come to terms with that. You can criticize stats up to the point where you delude yourself into believing that absolutely everyone who was ever given lethal injection deserved it. Or you can delude yourself into thinking that everyone who was ever killed by the state was a bad person anyway, even if they didn't commit that particular crime. Both of these are horseshit, but people are allowed to believe what they want.
What would be a little intellectually honest would be to own up to the fact that you're killing innocent people in the process, and that that's just the cost of doing business. People are free to believe that, too. I also find it a completely horseshit position to take for anyone who claims to be anti-abortion for moral reasons, and not one I have to respect or even take seriously, but that's just me. I really don't care who disagrees with me. Most people do.
wrote on 23 Apr 2021, 01:28 last edited by@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
I used to be on The Farm at least once a month. Sometimes more.
You really, really don't want to spend a lifetime down there.
I already said my opinion doesn't come from a place of compassion for nihilistic psychopaths.
According to your stats, we're getting about 4% of death penalty cases wrong. And guessing that they may have bias, it may not be that high. In an imperfect systen, that's not as bad as it sounds.
It still boils down to the same problem: it's an imperfect death penalty system. For every X monsters you kill, you're necessarily going to be killing Y innocent people.
There are a number of ways to come to terms with that. You can criticize stats up to the point where you delude yourself into believing that absolutely everyone who was ever given lethal injection deserved it. Or you can delude yourself into thinking that everyone who was ever killed by the state was a bad person anyway, even if they didn't commit that particular crime. Both of these are horseshit, but people are allowed to believe what they want.
What would be a little intellectually honest would be to own up to the fact that you're killing innocent people in the process, and that that's just the cost of doing business. People are free to believe that, too. I also find it a completely horseshit position to take for anyone who claims to be anti-abortion for moral reasons, and not one I have to respect or even take seriously, but that's just me. I really don't care who disagrees with me. Most people do.
Yeah, but your kids still love you.
-
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
I used to be on The Farm at least once a month. Sometimes more.
You really, really don't want to spend a lifetime down there.
I already said my opinion doesn't come from a place of compassion for nihilistic psychopaths.
According to your stats, we're getting about 4% of death penalty cases wrong. And guessing that they may have bias, it may not be that high. In an imperfect systen, that's not as bad as it sounds.
It still boils down to the same problem: it's an imperfect death penalty system. For every X monsters you kill, you're necessarily going to be killing Y innocent people.
There are a number of ways to come to terms with that. You can criticize stats up to the point where you delude yourself into believing that absolutely everyone who was ever given lethal injection deserved it. Or you can delude yourself into thinking that everyone who was ever killed by the state was a bad person anyway, even if they didn't commit that particular crime. Both of these are horseshit, but people are allowed to believe what they want.
What would be a little intellectually honest would be to own up to the fact that you're killing innocent people in the process, and that that's just the cost of doing business. People are free to believe that, too. I also find it a completely horseshit position to take for anyone who claims to be anti-abortion for moral reasons, and not one I have to respect or even take seriously, but that's just me. I really don't care who disagrees with me. Most people do.
wrote on 23 Apr 2021, 01:40 last edited by@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
For every X monsters you kill, you're necessarily going to be killing Y innocent people.
For every X monsters you release, you're necessarily going to be killing Y innocent people.
Pick your poison.
-
@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
For every X monsters you kill, you're necessarily going to be killing Y innocent people.
For every X monsters you release, you're necessarily going to be killing Y innocent people.
Pick your poison.
wrote on 23 Apr 2021, 15:21 last edited by Renauda@copper said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
For every X monsters you kill, you're necessarily going to be killing Y innocent people.
For every X monsters you release, you're necessarily going to be killing Y innocent people.
Pick your poison.
Depends which poison you believe serves the common good for all as opposed to which poison serves the greater good for the greatest number of people. If state execution serves the common good then losing a few innocents in the process is really nothing more than collateral damage. If on the other hand, state execution serves the greater good, then I guess the loss of a few innocents along the way is nothing more than a justified end result to a means of accomplishing a desired goal.
Which ever poison works best for you. You're probably right either way.
-
@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
For every X monsters you kill, you're necessarily going to be killing Y innocent people.
For every X monsters you release, you're necessarily going to be killing Y innocent people.
Pick your poison.
wrote on 23 Apr 2021, 16:04 last edited by@copper said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
For every X monsters you kill, you're necessarily going to be killing Y innocent people.
For every X monsters you release, you're necessarily going to be killing Y innocent people.
Pick your poison.
Not if you don't release them.
-
wrote on 23 Apr 2021, 20:06 last edited by
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
-
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
wrote on 23 Apr 2021, 20:08 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
Yep.
A dead person never killed anybody.
-
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
wrote on 23 Apr 2021, 20:26 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate
image url)Of course, the thing is that the states with a higher rate are the ones that need it more.
-
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
Yep.
A dead person never killed anybody.
wrote on 23 Apr 2021, 21:05 last edited by@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
Yep.
A dead person never killed anybody.
On the other hand, it kind of increases the murder rate by definition.
-
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
Yep.
A dead person never killed anybody.
On the other hand, it kind of increases the murder rate by definition.
wrote on 23 Apr 2021, 22:12 last edited by@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
Yep.
A dead person never killed anybody.
On the other hand, it kind of increases the murder rate by definition.
Execution ain't murder.
-
@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
Yep.
A dead person never killed anybody.
On the other hand, it kind of increases the murder rate by definition.
Execution ain't murder.
wrote on 23 Apr 2021, 22:16 last edited by -
@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
Yep.
A dead person never killed anybody.
On the other hand, it kind of increases the murder rate by definition.
Execution ain't murder.
wrote on 23 Apr 2021, 23:01 last edited by@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
Yep.
A dead person never killed anybody.
On the other hand, it kind of increases the murder rate by definition.
Execution ain't murder.
What would you call the killing of an innocent human being? A price worth paying to achieve some undefined and unspecified benefit?
-
wrote on 23 Apr 2021, 23:12 last edited by
What would you call the killing of an innocent by the murderer that wasn't executed?
A price worth paying to achieve woke?
What would you call the killing of an innocent by the murderer that wasn't discouraged by possible execution?
A price worth paying to achieve woke?
OK, that's reasonable.
I tend to favor the innocent over the murderer, but to each his own.
-
What would you call the killing of an innocent by the murderer that wasn't executed?
A price worth paying to achieve woke?
What would you call the killing of an innocent by the murderer that wasn't discouraged by possible execution?
A price worth paying to achieve woke?
OK, that's reasonable.
I tend to favor the innocent over the murderer, but to each his own.
wrote on 23 Apr 2021, 23:44 last edited by@copper said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
I tend to favor the innocent over the murderer, but to each his own.
Except when they've been wrongfully convicted, it would appear.
-
@copper said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
I tend to favor the innocent over the murderer, but to each his own.
Except when they've been wrongfully convicted, it would appear.
wrote on 24 Apr 2021, 00:10 last edited by@Copper Dude why even reply, it's obvious you're not trying to understand anybody. Jolly will at least try to interpret posts he disagrees with.
-
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
Yep.
A dead person never killed anybody.
On the other hand, it kind of increases the murder rate by definition.
Execution ain't murder.
What would you call the killing of an innocent human being? A price worth paying to achieve some undefined and unspecified benefit?
wrote on 24 Apr 2021, 00:42 last edited by Jolly@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
Yep.
A dead person never killed anybody.
On the other hand, it kind of increases the murder rate by definition.
Execution ain't murder.
What would you call the killing of an innocent human being? A price worth paying to achieve some undefined and unspecified benefit?
Justice. Sadly, it's imperfect, because man is imperfect. There will always be somebody wrongly convicted. Or wrongly executed.
We do the best we can on this mortal coil and let God take care of the soul.
-
@Copper Dude why even reply, it's obvious you're not trying to understand anybody. Jolly will at least try to interpret posts he disagrees with.
wrote on 24 Apr 2021, 01:39 last edited by@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@Copper Dude why even reply, it's obvious you're not trying to understand anybody. Jolly will at least try to interpret posts he disagrees with.
I understand exactly
You refuse to consider the whole story, I'm helping you do that
The wrongfully convicted are a sad consequence of imperfection
But that is not the whole story
Stomp your feet if you like, I'll still be here to help
-
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
Yep.
A dead person never killed anybody.
On the other hand, it kind of increases the murder rate by definition.
Execution ain't murder.
What would you call the killing of an innocent human being? A price worth paying to achieve some undefined and unspecified benefit?
Justice. Sadly, it's imperfect, because man is imperfect. There will always be somebody wrongly convicted. Or wrongly executed.
We do the best we can on this mortal coil and let God take care of the soul.
wrote on 24 Apr 2021, 03:24 last edited by Doctor Phibes@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
Yep.
A dead person never killed anybody.
On the other hand, it kind of increases the murder rate by definition.
Execution ain't murder.
What would you call the killing of an innocent human being? A price worth paying to achieve some undefined and unspecified benefit?
Justice. Sadly, it's imperfect, because man is imperfect. There will always be somebody wrongly convicted. Or wrongly executed.
We do the best we can on this mortal coil and let God take care of the soul.
It's not justice, thought. It's a grave injustice.
An Englishman once said that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer, a sentiment that was repeated by your Mr. Franklin.
At least with wrongful imprisonment, the wrong has a chance of being righted.
-
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
Yep.
A dead person never killed anybody.
On the other hand, it kind of increases the murder rate by definition.
Execution ain't murder.
What would you call the killing of an innocent human being? A price worth paying to achieve some undefined and unspecified benefit?
Justice. Sadly, it's imperfect, because man is imperfect. There will always be somebody wrongly convicted. Or wrongly executed.
We do the best we can on this mortal coil and let God take care of the soul.
It's not justice, thought. It's a grave injustice.
An Englishman once said that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer, a sentiment that was repeated by your Mr. Franklin.
At least with wrongful imprisonment, the wrong has a chance of being righted.
wrote on 24 Apr 2021, 11:33 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@jolly said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@doctor-phibes said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
Is there any evidence that having the death penalty reduces the murder rate?
Yep.
A dead person never killed anybody.
On the other hand, it kind of increases the murder rate by definition.
Execution ain't murder.
What would you call the killing of an innocent human being? A price worth paying to achieve some undefined and unspecified benefit?
Justice. Sadly, it's imperfect, because man is imperfect. There will always be somebody wrongly convicted. Or wrongly executed.
We do the best we can on this mortal coil and let God take care of the soul.
It's not justice, thought. It's a grave injustice.
An Englishman once said that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer, a sentiment that was repeated by your Mr. Franklin.
At least with wrongful imprisonment, the wrong has a chance of being righted.
Only if you look at it as nothing past the grave. Man has imperfect justice, but God's Justice is perfect. He shall know his own, and any errors in this world will be corrected in the next.
-
@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@Copper Dude why even reply, it's obvious you're not trying to understand anybody. Jolly will at least try to interpret posts he disagrees with.
I understand exactly
You refuse to consider the whole story, I'm helping you do that
The wrongfully convicted are a sad consequence of imperfection
But that is not the whole story
Stomp your feet if you like, I'll still be here to help
wrote on 24 Apr 2021, 13:58 last edited by Renauda@copper said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@aqua-letifer said in Meanwhile, on Long Island...:
@Copper Dude why even reply, it's obvious you're not trying to understand anybody. Jolly will at least try to interpret posts he disagrees with.
I understand exactly....
The wrongfully convicted are a sad consequence of imperfection
Well at least that is sorted out. Which ever poison works best for you. You're probably right either way. Time to round up the usual suspects, eh?