Guilty, guilty, guilty
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Chauvin has his knee on the neck of a person for four minutes and the guy isn’t moving and is handcuffed.
It’s an eternity. You wouldn’t do that to a dog.
@loki said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
Chauvin has his knee on the neck of a person for four minutes and the guy isn’t moving and is handcuffed.
Exactly. In my mind there's no question that Chauvin was in the wrong.
However, if his actions rise to the standard of "murder," I really don't know.
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@loki said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
Chauvin has his knee on the neck of a person for four minutes and the guy isn’t moving and is handcuffed.
Exactly. In my mind there's no question that Chauvin was in the wrong.
However, if his actions rise to the standard of "murder," I really don't know.
@george-k said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
@loki said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
Chauvin has his knee on the neck of a person for four minutes and the guy isn’t moving and is handcuffed.
Exactly. In my mind there's no question that Chauvin was in the wrong.
However, if his actions rise to the standard of "murder," I really don't know.
I go back to what Dershowitz said...We have trials to determine whether a person is guilty of a crime. For the system to work, that trial must be as fair and impartial as we can make it.
Chauvin may have been guilty, but his trial was a mockery of justice. That is just wrong.
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@george-k said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
@loki said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
Chauvin has his knee on the neck of a person for four minutes and the guy isn’t moving and is handcuffed.
Exactly. In my mind there's no question that Chauvin was in the wrong.
However, if his actions rise to the standard of "murder," I really don't know.
I go back to what Dershowitz said...We have trials to determine whether a person is guilty of a crime. For the system to work, that trial must be as fair and impartial as we can make it.
Chauvin may have been guilty, but his trial was a mockery of justice. That is just wrong.
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@Loki @Aqua-Letifer I don’t think you guys are quite getting where I am coming from.
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Chauvin needs to go to prison and he needs to go for a very long time. What he did was absolutely abhorrent. I’m a firm believer that there needs to be higher standards for police and when they cross the line there needs to be a higher price.
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In order for Chauvin to go away for a very long time, you need to absolutely make sure that you file the correct charges and that you prosecute the case in a clean and aboveboard manner. You also need to make sure that you absolutely make sure that you respect Chauvin’s rights to a fair and impartial trial.
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Because they did not do so, Chauvin should walk free on his appeal. That pisses me off for multiple reasons.
Because of the way they conducted this trial, there is not a single good outcome left to us. There is no way to point and say “That’s how justice is supposed to work!”
The Brad
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@Loki @Aqua-Letifer I don’t think you guys are quite getting where I am coming from.
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Chauvin needs to go to prison and he needs to go for a very long time. What he did was absolutely abhorrent. I’m a firm believer that there needs to be higher standards for police and when they cross the line there needs to be a higher price.
-
In order for Chauvin to go away for a very long time, you need to absolutely make sure that you file the correct charges and that you prosecute the case in a clean and aboveboard manner. You also need to make sure that you absolutely make sure that you respect Chauvin’s rights to a fair and impartial trial.
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Because they did not do so, Chauvin should walk free on his appeal. That pisses me off for multiple reasons.
Because of the way they conducted this trial, there is not a single good outcome left to us. There is no way to point and say “That’s how justice is supposed to work!”
@lufins-dad said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
I don’t think you guys are quite getting where I am coming from.
My post wasn't a reaction to anything or anyone specifically, it's what I thought before I even read the thread.
I agree with your last comment, though; pretty much how I feel about it.
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I wasn't there and did not really follow the testimony. I'm surprised with the guilty on all three, but, as I have been throughout, content to let it play out in the courts. We're only at the bottom of the 5th inning.
My biggest concern is the jury. Did they feel compelled to deliver the verdicts they did due to public pressure and fear for their families and the consequences for the nation?
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Chauvin was guilty of something.
The other two big cases out there - I'm more sympathetic to the officers. Kimberly Potter who mistook her sidearm for a taser - as was clearly evidenced by 1) her use of "taser, taser, taser" to warn her partner and 2) the "shit, I shot him" which suggests that was not her intent. Even prosecutors have acknowledged that. It would be difficult under Minnesota law to even find her guilty of manslaughter.
I also feel for the officer in Chicago who shot the teen who had dropped a gun before turning around and being shot.
I really think that part of adulting classes in schools is how to react to police interactions -
- Acknowledge that you are cooperating.
- Move slowly while saying what you are doing.
Needless to say, we might want better trained law personnel and perhaps better screening of who becomes an officer - but imagine how challenging that will be now with the abuse that is being put upon a whole profession.
@kluurs said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
Chauvin was guilty of something.
The other two big cases out there - I'm more sympathetic to the officers. Kimberly Potter who mistook her sidearm for a taser - as was clearly evidenced by 1) her use of "taser, taser, taser" to warn her partner and 2) the "shit, I shot him" which suggests that was not her intent. Even prosecutors have acknowledged that. It would be difficult under Minnesota law to even find her guilty of manslaughter.
I also feel for the officer in Chicago who shot the teen who had dropped a gun before turning around and being shot.
I really think that part of adulting classes in schools is how to react to police interactions -
- Acknowledge that you are cooperating.
- Move slowly while saying what you are doing.
Needless to say, we might want better trained law personnel and perhaps better screening of who becomes an officer - but imagine how challenging that will be now with the abuse that is being put upon a whole profession.
I’ve seen elsewhere on the forum where people have tried to relate these to other workplace accidental deaths. I’m sorry, but that doesn’t fly with me. Pulling a gun when you think it’s a taser and shooting a kid does not equate with a bus driver accidentally running a pedestrian over. She is supposed to be better. Being a police officer carries a heavy burden. She failed that day. Incompetence in a police officer is as bad as malice in the general public. I understand that she was highly decorated and regarded, and that was one moment in an otherwise sterling career. It doesn’t matter. I think involuntary manslaughter would be appropriate.
The Brad
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@Loki @Aqua-Letifer I don’t think you guys are quite getting where I am coming from.
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Chauvin needs to go to prison and he needs to go for a very long time. What he did was absolutely abhorrent. I’m a firm believer that there needs to be higher standards for police and when they cross the line there needs to be a higher price.
-
In order for Chauvin to go away for a very long time, you need to absolutely make sure that you file the correct charges and that you prosecute the case in a clean and aboveboard manner. You also need to make sure that you absolutely make sure that you respect Chauvin’s rights to a fair and impartial trial.
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Because they did not do so, Chauvin should walk free on his appeal. That pisses me off for multiple reasons.
Because of the way they conducted this trial, there is not a single good outcome left to us. There is no way to point and say “That’s how justice is supposed to work!”
@lufins-dad said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
there is not a single good outcome left to us
The mob (and at least one congressperson) now knows how to influence the verdict.
This is a valuable lesson.
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@kluurs said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
Chauvin was guilty of something.
The other two big cases out there - I'm more sympathetic to the officers. Kimberly Potter who mistook her sidearm for a taser - as was clearly evidenced by 1) her use of "taser, taser, taser" to warn her partner and 2) the "shit, I shot him" which suggests that was not her intent. Even prosecutors have acknowledged that. It would be difficult under Minnesota law to even find her guilty of manslaughter.
I also feel for the officer in Chicago who shot the teen who had dropped a gun before turning around and being shot.
I really think that part of adulting classes in schools is how to react to police interactions -
- Acknowledge that you are cooperating.
- Move slowly while saying what you are doing.
Needless to say, we might want better trained law personnel and perhaps better screening of who becomes an officer - but imagine how challenging that will be now with the abuse that is being put upon a whole profession.
I’ve seen elsewhere on the forum where people have tried to relate these to other workplace accidental deaths. I’m sorry, but that doesn’t fly with me. Pulling a gun when you think it’s a taser and shooting a kid does not equate with a bus driver accidentally running a pedestrian over. She is supposed to be better. Being a police officer carries a heavy burden. She failed that day. Incompetence in a police officer is as bad as malice in the general public. I understand that she was highly decorated and regarded, and that was one moment in an otherwise sterling career. It doesn’t matter. I think involuntary manslaughter would be appropriate.
@lufins-dad said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
@kluurs said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
Chauvin was guilty of something.
The other two big cases out there - I'm more sympathetic to the officers. Kimberly Potter who mistook her sidearm for a taser - as was clearly evidenced by 1) her use of "taser, taser, taser" to warn her partner and 2) the "shit, I shot him" which suggests that was not her intent. Even prosecutors have acknowledged that. It would be difficult under Minnesota law to even find her guilty of manslaughter.
I also feel for the officer in Chicago who shot the teen who had dropped a gun before turning around and being shot.
I really think that part of adulting classes in schools is how to react to police interactions -
- Acknowledge that you are cooperating.
- Move slowly while saying what you are doing.
Needless to say, we might want better trained law personnel and perhaps better screening of who becomes an officer - but imagine how challenging that will be now with the abuse that is being put upon a whole profession.
I’ve seen elsewhere on the forum where people have tried to relate these to other workplace accidental deaths. I’m sorry, but that doesn’t fly with me. Pulling a gun when you think it’s a taser and shooting a kid does not equate with a bus driver accidentally running a pedestrian over. She is supposed to be better. Being a police officer carries a heavy burden. She failed that day. Incompetence in a police officer is as bad as malice in the general public. I understand that she was highly decorated and regarded, and that was one moment in an otherwise sterling career. It doesn’t matter. I think involuntary manslaughter would be appropriate.
if you accept all of that, then the question becomes whether a sane person would ever want to become a police officer.
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@lufins-dad said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
@kluurs said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
Chauvin was guilty of something.
The other two big cases out there - I'm more sympathetic to the officers. Kimberly Potter who mistook her sidearm for a taser - as was clearly evidenced by 1) her use of "taser, taser, taser" to warn her partner and 2) the "shit, I shot him" which suggests that was not her intent. Even prosecutors have acknowledged that. It would be difficult under Minnesota law to even find her guilty of manslaughter.
I also feel for the officer in Chicago who shot the teen who had dropped a gun before turning around and being shot.
I really think that part of adulting classes in schools is how to react to police interactions -
- Acknowledge that you are cooperating.
- Move slowly while saying what you are doing.
Needless to say, we might want better trained law personnel and perhaps better screening of who becomes an officer - but imagine how challenging that will be now with the abuse that is being put upon a whole profession.
I’ve seen elsewhere on the forum where people have tried to relate these to other workplace accidental deaths. I’m sorry, but that doesn’t fly with me. Pulling a gun when you think it’s a taser and shooting a kid does not equate with a bus driver accidentally running a pedestrian over. She is supposed to be better. Being a police officer carries a heavy burden. She failed that day. Incompetence in a police officer is as bad as malice in the general public. I understand that she was highly decorated and regarded, and that was one moment in an otherwise sterling career. It doesn’t matter. I think involuntary manslaughter would be appropriate.
if you accept all of that, then the question becomes whether a sane person would ever want to become a police officer.
@horace said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
if you accept all of that, then the question becomes whether a sane person would ever want to become a police officer.
Or a physician. There are certain professions where an "honest mistake" causes death. Discipline is appropriate - but is it manslaughter if a physician fails to provide appropriate care or if a police officer shoots someone holding a toy gun, should that individual be held to same standard as a civilian in similar circumstances? I think we have to give police some latitude; however, there still should be limits. Beating a manacled person or shooting an unarmed individual fleeing should still rise to a criminal offense.
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@horace said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
if you accept all of that, then the question becomes whether a sane person would ever want to become a police officer.
Or a physician. There are certain professions where an "honest mistake" causes death. Discipline is appropriate - but is it manslaughter if a physician fails to provide appropriate care or if a police officer shoots someone holding a toy gun, should that individual be held to same standard as a civilian in similar circumstances? I think we have to give police some latitude; however, there still should be limits. Beating a manacled person or shooting an unarmed individual fleeing should still rise to a criminal offense.
@kluurs said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
@horace said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
if you accept all of that, then the question becomes whether a sane person would ever want to become a police officer.
Or a physician.
But I was responding to the notion that physicians shouldn't be held criminally responsible for mistakes, while police officers should.
Lurking behind all this somewhere is how much they're paid. Police officers have their pensions, but lots of government workers have that same deal. Nobody else is asked to both enforce the law through violence, and accept that if you do it wrong in the heat of some moment, your life will be over.
Even when I was young I thought being a cop would be the worst job ever. Now, I think being a cop would be the worst job ever ever ever.
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@kluurs said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
@horace said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
if you accept all of that, then the question becomes whether a sane person would ever want to become a police officer.
Or a physician.
But I was responding to the notion that physicians shouldn't be held criminally responsible for mistakes, while police officers should.
Lurking behind all this somewhere is how much they're paid. Police officers have their pensions, but lots of government workers have that same deal. Nobody else is asked to both enforce the law through violence, and accept that if you do it wrong in the heat of some moment, your life will be over.
Even when I was young I thought being a cop would be the worst job ever. Now, I think being a cop would be the worst job ever ever ever.
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@horace said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
if you accept all of that, then the question becomes whether a sane person would ever want to become a police officer.
Or a physician. There are certain professions where an "honest mistake" causes death. Discipline is appropriate - but is it manslaughter if a physician fails to provide appropriate care or if a police officer shoots someone holding a toy gun, should that individual be held to same standard as a civilian in similar circumstances? I think we have to give police some latitude; however, there still should be limits. Beating a manacled person or shooting an unarmed individual fleeing should still rise to a criminal offense.
@kluurs said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
@horace said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
if you accept all of that, then the question becomes whether a sane person would ever want to become a police officer.
Or a physician. There are certain professions where an "honest mistake" causes death. Discipline is appropriate - but is it manslaughter if a physician fails to provide appropriate care or if a police officer shoots someone holding a toy gun, should that individual be held to same standard as a civilian in similar circumstances? I think we have to give police some latitude; however, there still should be limits. Beating a manacled person or shooting an unarmed individual fleeing should still rise to a criminal offense.
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Define appropriate care... If a doctor performs an appendectomy on somebody that was there for a pacemaker and dies as a result, then yes, that rises to criminal negligence in my mind.
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Should an officer be held to the same standards? Absolutely not. They need to be held to higher standards. They're the thin blue line? Fine. Show it. When I have a bad day, I lose a sale. When a police officer has a bad day, somebody dies. The fact that she pulled a gun instead of a taser shows bad training, and a really bad design for the taser...
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@Loki @Aqua-Letifer I don’t think you guys are quite getting where I am coming from.
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Chauvin needs to go to prison and he needs to go for a very long time. What he did was absolutely abhorrent. I’m a firm believer that there needs to be higher standards for police and when they cross the line there needs to be a higher price.
-
In order for Chauvin to go away for a very long time, you need to absolutely make sure that you file the correct charges and that you prosecute the case in a clean and aboveboard manner. You also need to make sure that you absolutely make sure that you respect Chauvin’s rights to a fair and impartial trial.
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Because they did not do so, Chauvin should walk free on his appeal. That pisses me off for multiple reasons.
Because of the way they conducted this trial, there is not a single good outcome left to us. There is no way to point and say “That’s how justice is supposed to work!”
@lufins-dad said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
@Loki @Aqua-Letifer I don’t think you guys are quite getting where I am coming from.
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Chauvin needs to go to prison and he needs to go for a very long time. What he did was absolutely abhorrent. I’m a firm believer that there needs to be higher standards for police and when they cross the line there needs to be a higher price.
-
In order for Chauvin to go away for a very long time, you need to absolutely make sure that you file the correct charges and that you prosecute the case in a clean and aboveboard manner. You also need to make sure that you absolutely make sure that you respect Chauvin’s rights to a fair and impartial trial.
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Because they did not do so, Chauvin should walk free on his appeal. That pisses me off for multiple reasons.
Because of the way they conducted this trial, there is not a single good outcome left to us. There is no way to point and say “That’s how justice is supposed to work!”
Absolutely agree.
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Through happenstance or apathy, I missed most of the major beats in the Chauvin trial.
Was the sentence an over-reach?
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@mik said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
Sentencing won't be for eight weeks.
Ahhh, still a chance for some looting. I’m sure a lot of people were disappointed this last week.
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@lufins-dad said in Guilty, guilty, guilty:
@Loki @Aqua-Letifer I don’t think you guys are quite getting where I am coming from.
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Chauvin needs to go to prison and he needs to go for a very long time. What he did was absolutely abhorrent. I’m a firm believer that there needs to be higher standards for police and when they cross the line there needs to be a higher price.
-
In order for Chauvin to go away for a very long time, you need to absolutely make sure that you file the correct charges and that you prosecute the case in a clean and aboveboard manner. You also need to make sure that you absolutely make sure that you respect Chauvin’s rights to a fair and impartial trial.
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Because they did not do so, Chauvin should walk free on his appeal. That pisses me off for multiple reasons.
Because of the way they conducted this trial, there is not a single good outcome left to us. There is no way to point and say “That’s how justice is supposed to work!”
Absolutely agree.
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